Out of the Dark

[Computer Fan]

Lots of spoilers.
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.Don't peek if you haven't read the book.
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Up to the part where the very unusual deaths occur, it was a great book, but when the explaination came up... I couldn't believe it.

David.... Did you do that because you couldn't solve how humans were to win? Might as well callled up Superman and Wonder Woman

Andy.


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[Loren Pechtel]

On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:55:54 -0600, "Computer Fan"

Post by Computer Fan
Lots of spoilers.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.Don't peek if you haven't read the book.
.
..
..
Up to the part where the very unusual deaths occur, it was a great book, but when the explaination came up... I couldn't believe it.
David.... Did you do that because you couldn't solve how humans were to win? Might as well callled up Superman and Wonder Woman

Agreed. This would have made a good short story but a book?!?!

It's got all sorts of problems beyond that, though:

1) It's obvious from the very beginning that the humans have no way
of winning. All they can possibly do is chase the aliens off the
planet but that does nothing about the orbital weapons.

2) Why in the world do they have those heavy weapons on the ships?
Planetary bombardment weapons I understand but those ships were armed
to Death Star levels--against what?! Even if there's an enemy out
there (not that there is any signs of one) that such weaponry would be
appropriate against why were they brought along on a colonization
mission?

3) After the first shootdown it should be apparent that the aliens
have no meaningful defenses against heavy terrestial weapons. While
the initial bombardment destroyed almost all of those there are a few
that it most certainly didn't destroy because the information they got
would *NOT* have contained the location: Namely, boomers at sea. The
aliens have no way of finding them. When they trail an antenna to
figure out what happened they'll learn of the aliens. Stay out as
long as they can to locate the enemy bases and then turn the keys. The
aliens at no point demonstrated any air intercept ability whatsoever
and thus they would have no way of dealing with a depressed-trajectory
shot.

The boomer wouldn't get away but any single boomer could have
basically wiped out all the aliens on the planet and there would be
multiple boomers at sea. The aliens couldn't hope to establish a
beachhead until all the boomers were gone.

These would be inaccurate as the GPS cluster was gone but this still
should have played absolute hell with the aliens. Even nastier would
be if there are techs on board the subs that can defeat the warhead
safeties--take out some warheads and use them in truck bombs instead.


Are we looking at a big case of identity theft and this isn't David
Weber in the first place?!

[Spinner]

ICBMs are inerially guided ballistic missiles not guided by anything
external. And they can be retargeted quite accurately.

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:55:54 -0600, "Computer Fan"

Post by Computer Fan
Lots of spoilers.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.Don't peek if you haven't read the book.
.
..
..
Up to the part where the very unusual deaths occur, it was a great book, but when the explaination came up... I couldn't believe it.
David.... Did you do that because you couldn't solve how humans were to win? Might as well callled up Superman and Wonder Woman

Agreed. This would have made a good short story but a book?!?!
1) It's obvious from the very beginning that the humans have no way
of winning. All they can possibly do is chase the aliens off the
planet but that does nothing about the orbital weapons.
2) Why in the world do they have those heavy weapons on the ships?
Planetary bombardment weapons I understand but those ships were armed
to Death Star levels--against what?! Even if there's an enemy out
there (not that there is any signs of one) that such weaponry would be
appropriate against why were they brought along on a colonization
mission?
3) After the first shootdown it should be apparent that the aliens
have no meaningful defenses against heavy terrestial weapons. While
the initial bombardment destroyed almost all of those there are a few
that it most certainly didn't destroy because the information they got
would *NOT* have contained the location: Namely, boomers at sea. The
aliens have no way of finding them. When they trail an antenna to
figure out what happened they'll learn of the aliens. Stay out as
long as they can to locate the enemy bases and then turn the keys. The
aliens at no point demonstrated any air intercept ability whatsoever
and thus they would have no way of dealing with a depressed-trajectory
shot.
The boomer wouldn't get away but any single boomer could have
basically wiped out all the aliens on the planet and there would be
multiple boomers at sea. The aliens couldn't hope to establish a
beachhead until all the boomers were gone.
These would be inaccurate as the GPS cluster was gone but this still
should have played absolute hell with the aliens. Even nastier would
be if there are techs on board the subs that can defeat the warhead
safeties--take out some warheads and use them in truck bombs instead.
Are we looking at a big case of identity theft and this isn't David
Weber in the first place?!

--
2+2!=5 even for extremely large values of 2

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by Spinner
ICBMs are inerially guided ballistic missiles not guided by anything
external. And they can be retargeted quite accurately.

1) With the GPS cluster gone the sub won't have as good a fix on it's
position when it fires the missile. Thus the accuracy will suffer.

2) Depressed-trajectory shots aren't as accurate as normal ballistic
shots. They're faster and what's important in this case is they
aren't going to be nearly as easy for their space-based weapons to
pick off. Given the abysmal performance of their weapons the birds
should get through.

The only issue is if they can find the enemy bases before their
endurance runs out.

[Offbreed]

Post by Loren Pechtel
The only issue is if they can find the enemy bases before their
endurance runs out.

The bad guys could not locate the boomers' reactors? How about
artificial large aperture radar?

[Loren Pechtel]

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:51:12 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
The only issue is if they can find the enemy bases before their
endurance runs out.

The bad guys could not locate the boomers' reactors? How about
artificial large aperture radar?

How are they going to locate the reactors? The subs will be at depth
and sneaking around.

The aliens never demonstrated any real ability to find stealthy
targets. Armor pretty much always gets nailed after contact, infantry
basically never gets nailed.

I think the first contact the aliens will have is when the missiles
launch. At that time they can fire kinetic weapons and it's unlikely
the sub can escape a pattern of these but the birds will fly. The sub
will have to flush it's tubes as fast as they can without fratricide.

I very much doubt the aliens can intercept a depressed trajectory
shot.

[Offbreed]

Post by Loren Pechtel
The aliens never demonstrated any real ability to find stealthy
targets.  Armor pretty much always gets nailed after contact, infantry
basically never gets nailed.

The book is out, then. I need to stop reading this thread (after a few
more comments, of course).

Post by Loren Pechtel
I think the first contact the aliens will have is when the missiles
launch.  At that time they can fire kinetic weapons and it's unlikely
the sub can escape a pattern of these but the birds will fly.  The sub
will have to flush it's tubes as fast as they can without fratricide.

Launch and (maybe) when the sub comes up to take a star sighting,
unless the Capt can locate a landmark under water, such as a known sea
mount.

I can rationalize the star ships being over gunned due to the aliens
being predators, but that conflicts with the trash haulers being
basically "easy meat"; blind, toothless, nose dead, deaf, clawless,
etc.

[Spinner]

You guys have seen too many movies.
Inertial guidance is accurate to inches and inertial drift is not near
the problem it used to be. Subs don't take star sightings - they
submerge and stay that way til they come home.
And they do have undersea features on maps, also geolocated to inches.
Boomers always know two things - where they are and where 24 other
things are.

And half a dozen 20kt warheads really dont care if you miss by a few
hundred yards.
Close does count with horesshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear
weapons.

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
The aliens never demonstrated any real ability to find stealthy
targets.  Armor pretty much always gets nailed after contact, infantry
basically never gets nailed.

The book is out, then. I need to stop reading this thread (after a few
more comments, of course).

Post by Loren Pechtel
I think the first contact the aliens will have is when the missiles
launch.  At that time they can fire kinetic weapons and it's unlikely
the sub can escape a pattern of these but the birds will fly.  The sub
will have to flush it's tubes as fast as they can without fratricide.

Launch and (maybe) when the sub comes up to take a star sighting,
unless the Capt can locate a landmark under water, such as a known sea
mount.
I can rationalize the star ships being over gunned due to the aliens
being predators, but that conflicts with the trash haulers being
basically "easy meat"; blind, toothless, nose dead, deaf, clawless,
etc.

--
2+2!=5 even for extremely large values of 2

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by Spinner
You guys have seen too many movies.
Inertial guidance is accurate to inches and inertial drift is not near
the problem it used to be. Subs don't take star sightings - they
submerge and stay that way til they come home.
And they do have undersea features on maps, also geolocated to inches.
Boomers always know two things - where they are and where 24 other
things are.
And half a dozen 20kt warheads really dont care if you miss by a few
hundred yards.
Close does count with horesshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear
weapons.

We are talking about staying out several weeks--to the limits of their
endurance--with no GPS to refresh their intertial tracking. To
surface is to die.

There is also the problem that when they sailed their targets did not
exist. They're going to have to figure out where to shoot based only
on limited civilian radio intercepts.

[Don Sample]

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Spinner
You guys have seen too many movies.
Inertial guidance is accurate to inches and inertial drift is not near
the problem it used to be. Subs don't take star sightings - they
submerge and stay that way til they come home.
And they do have undersea features on maps, also geolocated to inches.
Boomers always know two things - where they are and where 24 other
things are.
And half a dozen 20kt warheads really dont care if you miss by a few
hundred yards.
Close does count with horesshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear
weapons.

We are talking about staying out several weeks--to the limits of their
endurance--with no GPS to refresh their intertial tracking. To
surface is to die.

In other words, do what Boomers do.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Don Sample

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Spinner
You guys have seen too many movies.
Inertial guidance is accurate to inches and inertial drift is not near
the problem it used to be. Subs don't take star sightings - they
submerge and stay that way til they come home.
And they do have undersea features on maps, also geolocated to inches.
Boomers always know two things - where they are and where 24 other
things are.
And half a dozen 20kt warheads really dont care if you miss by a few
hundred yards.
Close does count with horesshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear
weapons.

We are talking about staying out several weeks--to the limits of their
endurance--with no GPS to refresh their intertial tracking. To
surface is to die.

In other words, do what Boomers do.

Where "several" often are more than 25. A CEP of 200m is more than sufficient
for all but the deepest hardened bunkers.

scott

[Spinner]

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Spinner
You guys have seen too many movies.
Inertial guidance is accurate to inches and inertial drift is not near
the problem it used to be. Subs don't take star sightings - they
submerge and stay that way til they come home.
And they do have undersea features on maps, also geolocated to inches.
Boomers always know two things - where they are and where 24 other
things are.
And half a dozen 20kt warheads really dont care if you miss by a few
hundred yards.
Close does count with horesshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear
weapons.

We are talking about staying out several weeks--to the limits of their
endurance--with no GPS to refresh their intertial tracking. To
surface is to die.
There is also the problem that when they sailed their targets did not
exist. They're going to have to figure out where to shoot based only
on limited civilian radio intercepts.

If theyre MIRVd warheads - fire for effect .. you REALLY don't need to
be that close with a ballistic missile warhead. Honest.

And intetial nav platforms on something the size of a boomer do NOT
drift, at least to any significance over the endurance of a cruise
measured in months.
--
2+2!=5 even for extremely large values of 2

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:53:00 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
The aliens never demonstrated any real ability to find stealthy
targets.  Armor pretty much always gets nailed after contact, infantry
basically never gets nailed.

The book is out, then. I need to stop reading this thread (after a few
more comments, of course).

Post by Loren Pechtel
I think the first contact the aliens will have is when the missiles
launch.  At that time they can fire kinetic weapons and it's unlikely
the sub can escape a pattern of these but the birds will fly.  The sub
will have to flush it's tubes as fast as they can without fratricide.

Launch and (maybe) when the sub comes up to take a star sighting,
unless the Capt can locate a landmark under water, such as a known sea
mount.

Get an approximate location from the subsurface terrain. When it's
firing time you come to periscope depth and take the star sightings
then birds away.

Post by Offbreed
I can rationalize the star ships being over gunned due to the aliens
being predators, but that conflicts with the trash haulers being
basically "easy meat"; blind, toothless, nose dead, deaf, clawless,
etc.

The starship weapons make no sense to me. They expected to need
kinetic bombardment but that's it. There's no signs of an alien
threat that would warrant heavy weapons. Perhaps it's cover as they
intended to go after the other starfaring races in time.

The trash haulers are vulnerable becuase they weren't expect to face
any airborne threat. The aliens were expecting to engage a primitive
threat.

[Offbreed]

Post by Loren Pechtel
The starship weapons make no sense to me.

...

Post by Loren Pechtel
The trash haulers are vulnerable becuase they weren't expect to face

They are not humans, they are predators. They will make different
assumptions and have different "givens".

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Spinner
ICBMs are inerially guided ballistic missiles not guided by anything
external. And they can be retargeted quite accurately.

1) With the GPS cluster gone the sub won't have as good a fix on it's
position when it fires the missile. Thus the accuracy will suffer.

The sub also has intertial backup guidance, sonar and pretty damn good
maps of the seafloor in the launch zones. The CEP prior to GPS was
still good enough.

scott