Discussion:
Building LACs
(too old to reply)
deowll
2010-04-02 18:32:25 UTC
Permalink
While DW is having a wild hair about no military ship building anywhere but
in home system and certainly not in out system ship yards he has pretty much
let the cat out of the bag. He's forcing the story line to flow his way and
disregarding the reality he has created.

Hauptman built the Nat Turner frigates for Torch and they are described as
have the armament of a shrike on each end. We can only assume that Hauptman
can also build the missiles for these things and that it is legal to export
them at least to friends. If you stop and think about it there isn't much
about a LAC that the SLN couldn't build today if they wished other than the
fusion power units and that is not because said unit are high tech because
we are duly told by himself that Grayson developed this low tech item when
it was very low tech. The new Shrikes do have better gravity lenses for a
much better focus that would also be beyond the SLN at the present.

We don't know where the frigates were made but it isn't likely they were
made at Manticore because at the time Manticore was busy doing other things.
They were almost certainly made in Hauptman's commercial yards. We also know
that some of the Alliance members have their own military yards and are
doing some military ship building of the smaller sizes.

This says a couple of things.

1) There are clearly yards around that can build LACs. There are alternative
sources of supplies for LACs . Other than the fission drives and gravity
lenses the spinal mounted grasers the SLN could most likely build LACs and
the drives are less a matter of high tech than the knowing how to do it
because Grayson wasn't all that high tech.

2) _Any_ yard should be able to turn out a LAC carrier. They would need
military nodes but there are clearly smaller military yards around that are
making those. They would need better than commercial grade electronics but
again any Alliance yard that is making military ships should be able to
provide them with the required black boxes unless DW wants to claim all
electronics were imported.

3) While I suppose it would be _nice_ if the carrier had armor they aren't
supposed to go anywhere near combat so the absence thereof shouldn't negate
making them.

4) What I've just said about a LAC carrier is also in large part true of a
pod layer. Armor is nice but if you can stay out of range all you really
need is the ability to lay pods and the appropriate black boxes/electronics.
That and a nice large supply of pods to lay which is I admit something of a
sticking point thanks to DW. Bad DW. Nasty DW. Shame on you.

5) The question then arises how many systems in the Alliance were making
their own missiles and ftl com units of any sort? I would think at least
_some_ of them could make two and maybe three stage missiles using
capacitors. Eriwyn (sp) can make two stage missiles and they have been out
of the loop for a while. By the way DW cut these people back a bit compared
to the way they were first presented. As a wormhole controling entity they
should be rather richer than they are being presented to be at the present.
Not as rich as Manticore but certainly richer than Grayson.

6) Ghost rider is plenty good enough for ftl com. I have the feeling the ftl
com. units would, in the real world, be the sticking point. That has all
the hallmarks of being the kind of uber high tech toy that only the most
uber high tech manufacturing centers could make unless of course you want to
make something so big it would take a rather large ship just to haul it
around. That is the current situation of Haven. Haven can and is making ftl
com. units but the units are bodaciously huge.

7) The Andies can make three stage missiles and ftl com., I think, but I
have a feeling they will vanish stage right. The Havenites can make three
stage missiles and they are now major players. They may well be scattering
units around the Star Empire. If they are willing to provide/rent you a full
fledged SD(P) why bother with an improvised unit?

8) How about you never know what is going to happen in the next election?
Terry FitzSimons
2010-04-03 00:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
While DW is having a wild hair about no military ship building anywhere but
in home system and certainly not in out system ship yards he has pretty much
let the cat out of the bag. He's forcing the story line to flow his way and
disregarding the reality he has created.
Hauptman built the Nat Turner frigates for Torch and they are described as
have the armament of a shrike on each end. We can only assume that Hauptman
can also build the missiles for these things and that it is legal to export
them at least to friends. If you stop and think about it there isn't much
about a LAC that the SLN couldn't build today if they wished other than the
fusion power units and that is not because said unit are high tech because
we are duly told by himself that Grayson developed this low tech item when
it was very low tech. The new Shrikes do have better gravity lenses for a
much better focus that would also be beyond the SLN at the present.
We don't know where the frigates were made but it isn't likely they were
made at Manticore because at the time Manticore was busy doing other things.
They were almost certainly made in Hauptman's commercial yards. We also know
that some of the Alliance members have their own military yards and are
doing some military ship building of the smaller sizes.
I thought Hauptman was building the frigates at his part of the Blackbird
yards in Grayson with an export license from the Alliance.


--

Terry FitzSimons
***@mintel.net
deowll
2010-04-03 04:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry FitzSimons
Post by deowll
While DW is having a wild hair about no military ship building anywhere but
in home system and certainly not in out system ship yards he has pretty much
let the cat out of the bag. He's forcing the story line to flow his way and
disregarding the reality he has created.
Hauptman built the Nat Turner frigates for Torch and they are described as
have the armament of a shrike on each end. We can only assume that Hauptman
can also build the missiles for these things and that it is legal to export
them at least to friends. If you stop and think about it there isn't much
about a LAC that the SLN couldn't build today if they wished other than the
fusion power units and that is not because said unit are high tech because
we are duly told by himself that Grayson developed this low tech item when
it was very low tech. The new Shrikes do have better gravity lenses for a
much better focus that would also be beyond the SLN at the present.
We don't know where the frigates were made but it isn't likely they were
made at Manticore because at the time Manticore was busy doing other things.
They were almost certainly made in Hauptman's commercial yards. We also know
that some of the Alliance members have their own military yards and are
doing some military ship building of the smaller sizes.
I thought Hauptman was building the frigates at his part of the Blackbird
yards in Grayson with an export license from the Alliance.
You could be right and that computes all to well. I'd even considered the
possibility though I don't remember reading it. Building ships for others
was a major source of income for Grayson and they were about built out as
far as their ability to support a navy went at the time. And as we all know
the Blackbird yards are now debris.

That does not change my basic observation that there are still a few known
military yards in the Alliance. They aren't very big nor were they
considered very important but they were building military ships for their
star systems. The unknown is how much were they actually building and how
much in the way of electronics and such were they having to import?

Just don't tell me that all the uranium or what ever used in the fission
power plants in the Alliance LACs came from Grayson, Okay? It would
completely ruin my theory and it might even be true though Grayson couldn't
be the only system with a decent supply of the stuff. It isn't common but it
isn't all that rare either but it could well be that nobody else was
bothering to mine it.
Post by Terry FitzSimons
--
Terry FitzSimons
Michael R N Dolbear
2010-04-03 17:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
While DW is having a wild hair about no military ship building
anywhere but
Post by deowll
in home system and certainly not in out system ship yards he has pretty much
let the cat out of the bag. He's forcing the story line to flow his way and
disregarding the reality he has created.
I think this is your own invention. DW was discussing not warships in
general but ships of the wall ('Wallers'). Thus the Sollies only build
SDs in a few yards, though others could do it with a little conversion
& this is for political reasons.

As to LACs, anyone could build them but mass production reduces the
cost so, eg, Nuncio bought them from a Sollie supplier.

A LAC carrier however needs heavy, miltary grade, nodes, compensators
and hyperdrive so something like the workup time that Erwhon requires
for {spoiler} will be required for a civ yard to convert for
production.
--
Mike D
deowll
2010-04-05 07:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
Post by deowll
While DW is having a wild hair about no military ship building
anywhere but
Post by deowll
in home system and certainly not in out system ship yards he has
pretty much
Post by deowll
let the cat out of the bag. He's forcing the story line to flow his
way and
Post by deowll
disregarding the reality he has created.
I think this is your own invention. DW was discussing not warships in
general but ships of the wall ('Wallers'). Thus the Sollies only build
SDs in a few yards, though others could do it with a little conversion
& this is for political reasons.
As to LACs, anyone could build them but mass production reduces the
cost so, eg, Nuncio bought them from a Sollie supplier.
A LAC carrier however needs heavy, miltary grade, nodes, compensators
and hyperdrive so something like the workup time that Erwhon requires
for {spoiler} will be required for a civ yard to convert for
production.
The home system I was talking about was Manticore.

The pod ships that Erwhon are making for Maya are being passed off as cargo
ships. Do they have full military grade drives? If they do they are almost
certainly generic military grade drives. Better than Haven makes and worse
than Manticore.

I would have to say the same thing about the drives on a LAC carrier. The
ship itself isn't expected to go into combat. Being able to go up or down a
bit more in the hyper bands does make for somewhat shorter trips but I'd say
they mainly mean the ship can change bands to avoid hostile ships.

As for as the SLN go I'm not sure their ONI has enough data on
Manticore/Havenite LACs to create an interest at the moment. They could
almost certainly use LACs to thin out long range missile attacks but that
may not be obvious to them at this time. I don't think either the Maya or
Erwhon have shown an interest and while the Alignment has some small units
that they used at Manticore it looks like they mean to use them for training
platforms. Okaky it was stated that they are intended to be used as training
platforms.
Post by deowll
--
Mike D
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