Discussion:
A Beautiful Friendship -- a nitpick (not a spoiler)
(too old to reply)
Loren Pechtel
2011-07-12 02:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.

That's less insulation than the building codes require here!

What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.

Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
Benjamin
2011-07-13 07:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
pyotr filipivich
2011-07-13 21:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
The problem is that with a four T-year long winter - it will be a
long time before the sun shines enough to over come the "global
cooling".

It isn't so much that for each day in a T-year, you have four days
in the Sphinx year, but that the effect of each day "piles up". So
while fall lasts "forever" you're going from a Terra "mild winter" to
a Moderate winter, to a harsh winter, then back to moderate, then to
mild, then to "cooler temps". And then there is summer.

OTGH - I'm not enough of a climate scientists to be able to say
what such a model would look like, or how it would behave.
--
pyotr filipivich
"I made it to 2010 and all I got from the SciFi Books of my youth
was the lousy dystopian government?
Loren Pechtel
2011-07-14 00:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Bob Casanova
2011-07-14 20:57:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:28:52 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Benjamin
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
--
Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Don Sample
2011-07-14 21:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:28:52 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
Or about the same as half an inch of good quality foam insulation.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://www.buffybodycount.ca/>
mike weber
2011-07-15 00:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by Bob Casanova
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:28:52 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
Or about the same as half an inch of good quality foam insulation.
Which isn't all that bad.
Don Sample
2011-07-15 01:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Don Sample
Post by Bob Casanova
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:28:52 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
Or about the same as half an inch of good quality foam insulation.
Which isn't all that bad.
Unless you live somewhere that's cold.

Minimum code for wall insulation in Southern Ontario is R-19. (In
Northern Ontario it's R-24)

To get than in stone you're looking at 6 - 8 metre thick walls.

Minimum code for attic insulation is twice that.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://www.buffybodycount.ca/>
mike weber
2011-07-15 21:25:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by mike weber
Post by Don Sample
Or about the same as half an inch of good quality foam insulation.
Which isn't all that bad.
Unless you live somewhere that's cold.
Minimum code for wall insulation in Southern Ontario is R-19. (In
Northern Ontario it's R-24)
To get than in stone you're looking at 6 - 8 metre thick walls.
Minimum code for attic insulation is twice that.
In SC or Georgia (where i live), probably not bad.
Loren Pechtel
2011-07-16 01:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Don Sample
Post by Bob Casanova
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:28:52 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
Or about the same as half an inch of good quality foam insulation.
Which isn't all that bad.
For a Sphinx winter??? Half a meter of it would be far more
appropriate!
Bob Casanova
2011-07-15 17:56:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 17:33:15 -0400, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Don Sample
Post by Don Sample
Post by Bob Casanova
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:28:52 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
Or about the same as half an inch of good quality foam insulation.
About that. Of course, half an inch of foam might not stop a
hexapuma... ;-)
--
Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
greylock
2011-07-14 22:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:28:52 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Benjamin
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
SOME stone is actually quite good insulation - as well as being
structurally strong.

Unless you have some details on the fictional stone - you need to
consider the possibility that it might have the properties of volcanic
pumice - which is a rather good insulator.
Loren Pechtel
2011-07-14 23:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by greylock
SOME stone is actually quite good insulation - as well as being
structurally strong.
Unless you have some details on the fictional stone - you need to
consider the possibility that it might have the properties of volcanic
pumice - which is a rather good insulator.
IIRC it was slate--perfectly ordinary stone that's useless for
insulation. He confused the thermal regulation you would get from
that much stone with the insulation you wouldn't.
Loren Pechtel
2011-07-14 23:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
Post by Loren Pechtel
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Approx R0.08/inch, or R3.1 for a meter.
That's what I found for concrete, I figured stone would be similar.
That R 3.1 is about what you get from the inch of styrofoam backing
the stucco on our walls.
Scott Lurndal
2011-07-14 23:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Benjamin
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Then again, a meter of 'stone wool' would have an incredibly high
R-value of between 120 and 160.

I suspect that the "stone" used on Sphinx isn't just cut and mortered
quarrystone, but rather some engineered construct (a la the foamed rock
panels in RAH's _The Sixth Column_) made from rock.

scott
Don Sample
2011-07-15 00:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Benjamin
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Then again, a meter of 'stone wool' would have an incredibly high
R-value of between 120 and 160.
I suspect that the "stone" used on Sphinx isn't just cut and mortered
quarrystone, but rather some engineered construct (a la the foamed rock
panels in RAH's _The Sixth Column_) made from rock.
scott
The Honorverse has the ability to make aerogel in industrial quantities,
which gives you an R-10 per inch.

OTOP, Harrington House probably has a mini-fusion reactor in the
basement, so who cares how good the insulation in the walls is?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://www.buffybodycount.ca/>
pyotr filipivich
2011-07-15 17:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Benjamin
Post by Loren Pechtel
Her house is described as having a meter of stone in the walls to
resist the Sphinx winter.
That's less insulation than the building codes require here!
What's happening is that he's mistaking the huge thermal mass of such
a mass of stone with insulating capability.
Such thick walls are often used in hot climates to avoid the heat of
the day but it's *NOT* actually insulation, but rather the wall can
soak up the heat and then give it back that night. Without the
alternating day/night cycle this wouldn't work and thus this would be
of no value against a Sphinx winter.
It would be of some value. The walls still average the day and night
temperatures. Also, they probably heat the home somehow, so the thicker
walls would hold in the warmth.
All it would accomplish is averaging the day/night cycle. It's of
basically no value in keeping in the heat. I couldn't find R values
for stone as such but the closest I did find are a total joke.
Then again, a meter of 'stone wool' would have an incredibly high
R-value of between 120 and 160.
I suspect that the "stone" used on Sphinx isn't just cut and mortered
quarrystone, but rather some engineered construct (a la the foamed rock
panels in RAH's _The Sixth Column_) made from rock.
scott
The Honorverse has the ability to make aerogel in industrial quantities,
which gives you an R-10 per inch.
OTOP, Harrington House probably has a mini-fusion reactor in the
basement, so who cares how good the insulation in the walls is?
No wonder colonization is so expensive.

pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich.
Just about the time you finally see light at the end of the tunnel,
you find out it's a Government Project to build more tunnel.
Loren Pechtel
2011-07-16 01:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
OTOP, Harrington House probably has a mini-fusion reactor in the
basement, so who cares how good the insulation in the walls is?
This is Stephanie Harrington, not Honor Harrington--I doubt it.

Besides, the thick walls were presented as necessary to deal with a
Sphinxian winter.

Loading...