Weber Update

[Michelle Steiner]

I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended three
panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able to get the
following information about upcoming publications. You may already know
some of it, maybe all of it.

Next two honor Harrington books have been turned in. A Rising Thunder and
one yet to be titled. 

Fifth safehold turned in. How Firm a Foundation. 

Starting Another Bahzel novel. 

Then another Honorverse book. 

Then then for Tor, either another Safehold book or something new. 

He will be turning in three more this year. 

Then his "magnum opus", which will take place some 20 years after the
current Bahzel series. 

He and Ringo are contracted to do 4 more novels in the Prince Roger series;
they will most likely be prequels. He has no idea when they will do them,
though. 

There was more, but that was all I was able to get scribble down.

[Dahak]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:15:22 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Michelle Steiner
I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended three
panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able to get the
following information about upcoming publications. You may already know
some of it, maybe all of it.

Thanks.

-JPB

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Dahak

Post by Michelle Steiner
I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended
three panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able
to get the following information about upcoming publications. You may
already know some of it, maybe all of it.

Thanks.

BTW, one of the audience members showed a photo of his license plate; it is
"DAHAK".

[Dahak]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:07:47 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Dahak

Post by Michelle Steiner
I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended
three panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able
to get the following information about upcoming publications. You may
already know some of it, maybe all of it.

Thanks.

BTW, one of the audience members showed a photo of his license plate; it is
"DAHAK".

Heh...

I've occasionally toyed with the idea of getting one, myself.

-JPB

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Michelle Steiner
I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended three
panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able to get the
following information about upcoming publications. You may already know
some of it, maybe all of it.
Next two honor Harrington books have been turned in. A Rising Thunder and
one yet to be titled.
Fifth safehold turned in. How Firm a Foundation.
Starting Another Bahzel novel.
Then another Honorverse book.
Then then for Tor, either another Safehold book or something new.
He will be turning in three more this year.
Then his "magnum opus", which will take place some 20 years after the
current Bahzel series.
He and Ringo are contracted to do 4 more novels in the Prince Roger series;
they will most likely be prequels. He has no idea when they will do them,
though.
There was more, but that was all I was able to get scribble down.

Excellent list except for the missing mention of the new Dahak
series. Surely that was overlooked ?

I still regard _Mutineers_Moon_ as the best scifi book. Ever.

Lynn

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Michelle Steiner
There was more, but that was all I was able to get scribble down.

Excellent list except for the missing mention of the new Dahak
series. Surely that was overlooked ?

As I said, that was all I was able to scribble down. David spoke at three
panel discussions, plus had one solo session, and I can't recall everything
that he said.

The only reason I went to there was because he and Kim Harrison were there.
(It was a 90-minute drive each way and two nights in a hotel.) Harrison
also had three panel discussions, two of which were on the same panel as
Weber. Unfortunately, the third session for each of them were on at the
same time, so I had to miss hers.

I recorded one of their sessions on my iPhone; I'd upload it but it's an
hour long and 30 megabytes in size, so I don't have any place to put it.
Furthermore, I don't know whether it would be legal or ethical to do so.
(But that didn't stop me from burning it to a CD and mailing it to my
daughter.)

[Benjamin]

Sounds great. I will be buying both the Honor books and the Safehold
books. The last Honor book ended in sort of a cliff hanger. I also
have a friend who bought a redshirt billet at one of David's charity
auctions and I want to see if something unfortunate happens to him.

I am somewhat disappointed to find that there will be no Hell's Gate
book forthcoming. Was it issues with his collaborator or just the fact
that his writing schedule seems to be completely booked that caused the
long hiatus in that series. It showed a lot of promise. I want an Out
of the Dark sequel too. The part I like the most about Safehold is the
Clinton gang reacting after the fact to the newest military defeat. I
want to get that same thing going on in the Out of the Dark series with
that alien council.

I also want to read more Dahak. Still, we should be glad to get several
books a year from David from two different publishers. The fans of
George R. R. Martin had to wait much longer between books to get their
fix. At least David writes a lot faster.

Benjamin

Post by Michelle Steiner
I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended three
panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able to get the
following information about upcoming publications. You may already know
some of it, maybe all of it.
Next two honor Harrington books have been turned in. A Rising Thunder and
one yet to be titled.
Fifth safehold turned in. How Firm a Foundation.
Starting Another Bahzel novel.
Then another Honorverse book.
Then then for Tor, either another Safehold book or something new.
He will be turning in three more this year.
Then his "magnum opus", which will take place some 20 years after the
current Bahzel series.
He and Ringo are contracted to do 4 more novels in the Prince Roger series;
they will most likely be prequels. He has no idea when they will do them,
though.
There was more, but that was all I was able to get scribble down.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Benjamin
I am somewhat disappointed to find that there will be no Hell's Gate
book forthcoming. Was it issues with his collaborator or just the fact
that his writing schedule seems to be completely booked that caused the
long hiatus in that series. It showed a lot of promise.

Oh, there most likely will be one sometime, but he has no idea when.
Mostly because that he has just so many hours in a day. That's also the
reason the Prince Roger prequels don't have any set schedule; he and Ringo
have so much on their respective plates, they haven't been able to find
time when both of them can work on it together.

The reason they will be prequels and not sequels is that now that Roger is
Emperor, there's no way that he will be allowed to go off adventuring again.

Post by Benjamin
I want an Out of the Dark sequel too.

He intended that to be a one-off book, but the publisher marketed it as the
first of a series; they're still trying to get that straightened out.

Oh, and one other thing: He's in negotiation for a movie based on _On
Basilisk Station_. He wanted to tell us more about it, but Sharon wouldn't
let him.

Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, the nation of Sharona in Hells Gate
was indeed named after his wife.

[Benjamin]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Benjamin
I am somewhat disappointed to find that there will be no Hell's Gate
book forthcoming.

Oh, there most likely will be one sometime, but he has no idea when.
Mostly because that he has just so many hours in a day.

Understood. I would rather read about Honor and Safehold than the other
two series.

Post by Michelle Steiner
Oh, and one other thing: He's in negotiation for a movie based on _On
Basilisk Station_. He wanted to tell us more about it, but Sharon wouldn't
let him.

Cool. I hope this one works out. I wonder if Tom Felton can play
Captain Lord Pavel Young. He did pompous well in as Draco Malfoy in
Harry Potter. I know he is 24, but they had prolong in the Honorverse
which means he can be played by younger actors.

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by Benjamin
Sounds great. I will be buying both the Honor books and the Safehold
books. The last Honor book ended in sort of a cliff hanger. I also
have a friend who bought a redshirt billet at one of David's charity
auctions and I want to see if something unfortunate happens to him.

A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Benjamin
Sounds great. I will be buying both the Honor books and the Safehold
books. The last Honor book ended in sort of a cliff hanger. I also
have a friend who bought a redshirt billet at one of David's charity
auctions and I want to see if something unfortunate happens to him.

A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any time
before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and Mesa
isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed as a
factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to reason.

Yes, a cliff hanger; Mesa is about to attack Manticore, but does not know
that Manticore will be defended by Haven's navy.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 09:08:54 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Benjamin
Sounds great. I will be buying both the Honor books and the Safehold
books. The last Honor book ended in sort of a cliff hanger. I also
have a friend who bought a redshirt billet at one of David's charity
auctions and I want to see if something unfortunate happens to him.

A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any time
before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and Mesa
isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed as a
factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to reason.

Yes, a cliff hanger; Mesa is about to attack Manticore, but does not know
that Manticore will be defended by Haven's navy.

Even Haven can blow the Sollie fleet out of the water without
difficulty. Sure, Haven doesn't have Apollo but all that means is
they have to fire more missiles. One Havenite ship can still take out
a bunch of Sollie ships.

Note that in the worst outcome Haven shoots itself dry and
retreats--they still have drives that outperform the Sollies and they
have no reason to enter the Sollie missile envelope. That still
leaves Manticore's home fleet & system defenses and we've already seen
how Manticore's missiles perform against the Sollies.

[Offbreed]

A cliffhanger?  It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before.  We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons.  If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

A cliffhanger?  It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before.  We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons.  If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

[Paul Howard]

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.

Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.

It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven & Manticore
to look like "nutcases".

On the other hand, part of the Alignment's plans are to force a breakup
of the Solarian League.

The destruction of a Sollie fleet by either Manticore or Haven is likely
to be a strong factor in that breakup.

The "backup plan" mentioned is something that will ensure the
destruction of the Sollie fleet even if the Sollie Admiral gets an
attack of sanity.

Mind you, I don't consider the end of the last book a "cliffhanger"
since we know that Manticore has a very strong hand against the coming
Sollie Fleet.

[Doug Jones]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:33:09 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven & Manticore
to look like "nutcases".
On the other hand, part of the Alignment's plans are to force a breakup
of the Solarian League.
The destruction of a Sollie fleet by either Manticore or Haven is likely
to be a strong factor in that breakup.
The "backup plan" mentioned is something that will ensure the
destruction of the Sollie fleet even if the Sollie Admiral gets an
attack of sanity.
Mind you, I don't consider the end of the last book a "cliffhanger"
since we know that Manticore has a very strong hand against the coming
Sollie Fleet.

Agreed. I think what was established was that what Manticore had left
would be enough to take out the Sollie Fleet, but because of the
damage to their manufacturing infrastructure, they couldn't stop the
next fleet to come in. The Sollies are coming in thinking they're
facing minimal resistance, and more than likely would have *had* to be
destroyed. Whether they'll think that facing an almost equivalent
fleet is something else.

[Robert A. Woodward]

Post by Doug Jones
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:33:09 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven & Manticore
to look like "nutcases".
On the other hand, part of the Alignment's plans are to force a breakup
of the Solarian League.
The destruction of a Sollie fleet by either Manticore or Haven is likely
to be a strong factor in that breakup.
The "backup plan" mentioned is something that will ensure the
destruction of the Sollie fleet even if the Sollie Admiral gets an
attack of sanity.
Mind you, I don't consider the end of the last book a "cliffhanger"
since we know that Manticore has a very strong hand against the coming
Sollie Fleet.

Agreed. I think what was established was that what Manticore had left
would be enough to take out the Sollie Fleet, but because of the
damage to their manufacturing infrastructure, they couldn't stop the
next fleet to come in. The Sollies are coming in thinking they're
facing minimal resistance, and more than likely would have *had* to be
destroyed. Whether they'll think that facing an almost equivalent
fleet is something else.

It is my impression that they had enough stockpiled missiles to
destroy ALL of Battle Fleet (true, most of these would not be
Apollo, but they were still better than anybody else's missiles).

[Loren Pechtel]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:33:09 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Offbreed
As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven & Manticore
to look like "nutcases".
On the other hand, part of the Alignment's plans are to force a breakup
of the Solarian League.
The destruction of a Sollie fleet by either Manticore or Haven is likely
to be a strong factor in that breakup.
The "backup plan" mentioned is something that will ensure the
destruction of the Sollie fleet even if the Sollie Admiral gets an
attack of sanity.
Mind you, I don't consider the end of the last book a "cliffhanger"
since we know that Manticore has a very strong hand against the coming
Sollie Fleet.

The thing is their entire strategy had to be to work from the shadows.
The fact that Mesa is behind it has been exposed. Manticore can
easily conquer Mesa. Taking the surface might be a problem but if
they control the orbitals Mesa won't be providing support.

There might be other small colonies but what happens when Manticore
starts searching every star system around? One destroyer can
perfectly well search a system and they have plenty of destroyers.

[Paul Howard]

Post by Doug Jones
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:33:09 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Offbreed
As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven& Manticore
to look like "nutcases".
On the other hand, part of the Alignment's plans are to force a breakup
of the Solarian League.
The destruction of a Sollie fleet by either Manticore or Haven is likely
to be a strong factor in that breakup.
The "backup plan" mentioned is something that will ensure the
destruction of the Sollie fleet even if the Sollie Admiral gets an
attack of sanity.
Mind you, I don't consider the end of the last book a "cliffhanger"
since we know that Manticore has a very strong hand against the coming
Sollie Fleet.

The thing is their entire strategy had to be to work from the shadows.
The fact that Mesa is behind it has been exposed. Manticore can
easily conquer Mesa. Taking the surface might be a problem but if
they control the orbitals Mesa won't be providing support.
There might be other small colonies but what happens when Manticore
starts searching every star system around? One destroyer can
perfectly well search a system and they have plenty of destroyers.

The Alignment is *not* Mesa.

One of the headquarters of the Alignment is *on* Mesa but the Alignment
has major branches on several of the major worlds of the Solarian League.

Check out the references to the Renaissance Factor.

Manticore and Haven have no idea which planetary systems are part of the
Renaissance Factor.

Even if Manticore and Haven "take out" Mesa, the Renaissance Factor will
still be around to cause trouble.

Of course, to many in the Solarian League the idea that the "evil
corporations of Mesa" are behind a conspiracy to take over the Galaxy is
straight from "bad fiction".

Even if Manticore and Haven can conquer Mesa, the Renaissance Factor
could easily make Manticore and Haven the "Bad Guys".

IMO the Alignment would make sure that a conqueror of Mesa would find no
evidence to support their claims about the Alignment.

Finally, David Weber ended his "Authorial Note" at the beginning of
_Storm From The Shadows_ with this comment "And I suppose I should also
warn you that the ride is going to get a lot rougher for the good guys
over the next few books"

If it was as easy as you think to defeat the Alignment, David Weber
would not have made that comment.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:55:32 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
There might be other small colonies but what happens when Manticore
starts searching every star system around? One destroyer can
perfectly well search a system and they have plenty of destroyers.

The Alignment is *not* Mesa.
One of the headquarters of the Alignment is *on* Mesa but the Alignment
has major branches on several of the major worlds of the Solarian League.

That shipyard needs a *LOT* of money. Where is it going to come from
with the income from Mesa gone?

Post by Paul Howard
Even if Manticore and Haven "take out" Mesa, the Renaissance Factor will
still be around to cause trouble.

But it will be known and thus have to operate much more
circumspectly--and thus be much less dangerous.

Post by Paul Howard
Of course, to many in the Solarian League the idea that the "evil
corporations of Mesa" are behind a conspiracy to take over the Galaxy is
straight from "bad fiction".

I think the hundreds of ships of the wall that Mesa's manipulations
destroyed will be quite a wake-up call.

Post by Paul Howard
Finally, David Weber ended his "Authorial Note" at the beginning of
_Storm From The Shadows_ with this comment "And I suppose I should also
warn you that the ride is going to get a lot rougher for the good guys
over the next few books"
If it was as easy as you think to defeat the Alignment, David Weber
would not have made that comment.

To finally defeat it will be very hard. The question is what the
threat level is.

[Spinner]

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven & Manticore
to look like "nutcases".
On the other hand, part of the Alignment's plans are to force a breakup
of the Solarian League.
The destruction of a Sollie fleet by either Manticore or Haven is likely
to be a strong factor in that breakup.
The "backup plan" mentioned is something that will ensure the
destruction of the Sollie fleet even if the Sollie Admiral gets an
attack of sanity.
Mind you, I don't consider the end of the last book a "cliffhanger"
since we know that Manticore has a very strong hand against the coming
Sollie Fleet.

End game - the sollies drop the eridani edict on somewhere friendly as
a trumped up 'lesson'. In return, the manticor and haven fleets
running interference for each other head out and set up shop directly
in the solar system itself, ready to execute their own version of the
edict. now THAT's a cliffhanger

Thats the problem with a mexian standoff .. you stand a good chance of
ending up with no mexicans left.
--
2+2!=5 even for extremely large values of 2

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by Spinner
End game - the sollies drop the eridani edict on somewhere friendly as
a trumped up 'lesson'. In return, the manticor and haven fleets
running interference for each other head out and set up shop directly
in the solar system itself, ready to execute their own version of the
edict. now THAT's a cliffhanger
Thats the problem with a mexian standoff .. you stand a good chance of
ending up with no mexicans left.

Yeah, if they start going after planets it's MAD. I think the Sollies
would have the sense to realize that, though. We ran the math in here
some years ago, they certainly could also. One pod worth of
Manticoran missiles at terminal velocity hits with the energy of the
dinosaur killer. Spread out the impacts and it does even more damage.
The Sollies have no hope of stopping such missiles.

They go Eridani on a Manticoran planet and there will no doubt be some
ships crewed with people from that planet that would decide to return
the favor and probably not stop until their magazines were empty.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven & Manticore
to look like "nutcases".

But that leaves beowulf out of the picture. It's clear that they'll be
a big part of any retribution visited upon the alignment; heck Honor's
great-great-great whatever was grandaddy dettwiler's big bad.

scott

[Paul Howard]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven& Manticore
to look like "nutcases".

But that leaves beowulf out of the picture. It's clear that they'll be
a big part of any retribution visited upon the alignment; heck Honor's
great-great-great whatever was grandaddy dettwiler's big bad.
scott

While I see Beowulf *joining* the Haven-Manticore alliance against the
Alignment, I still see that many in the Solarian League would see the
whole thing of "evil Mesan corporations out to control the galaxy" as
"conspiracy nonsense".

[Doug Jones]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:52:54 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven& Manticore
to look like "nutcases".

But that leaves beowulf out of the picture. It's clear that they'll be
a big part of any retribution visited upon the alignment; heck Honor's
great-great-great whatever was grandaddy dettwiler's big bad.
scott

While I see Beowulf *joining* the Haven-Manticore alliance against the
Alignment, I still see that many in the Solarian League would see the
whole thing of "evil Mesan corporations out to control the galaxy" as
"conspiracy nonsense".

There's a line in "Torch of Freedom":

"but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf
unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not
going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while
they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take
down Grendel. Which they surely will, once they learn the monster has
a mother after all.""

I think it's almost a sure thing that Beowulf will join in, and given
their position within the Solarian League, will persuade others that
either the threat is real or they should just go sit on the sidelines.

[Paul Howard]

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:52:54 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven& Manticore
to look like "nutcases".

But that leaves beowulf out of the picture. It's clear that they'll be
a big part of any retribution visited upon the alignment; heck Honor's
great-great-great whatever was grandaddy dettwiler's big bad.
scott

While I see Beowulf *joining* the Haven-Manticore alliance against the
Alignment, I still see that many in the Solarian League would see the
whole thing of "evil Mesan corporations out to control the galaxy" as
"conspiracy nonsense".

"but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf
unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not
going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while
they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take
down Grendel. Which they surely will, once they learn the monster has
a mother after all.""
I think it's almost a sure thing that Beowulf will join in, and given
their position within the Solarian League, will persuade others that
either the threat is real or they should just go sit on the sidelines.

Very possible.

Of course, with the size of the Solarian League that could still leave
the Manticore-Haven-Beowulf alliance out-numbered. [Smile]

[Doug Jones]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:09:31 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:52:54 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven& Manticore
to look like "nutcases".

But that leaves beowulf out of the picture. It's clear that they'll be
a big part of any retribution visited upon the alignment; heck Honor's
great-great-great whatever was grandaddy dettwiler's big bad.
scott

While I see Beowulf *joining* the Haven-Manticore alliance against the
Alignment, I still see that many in the Solarian League would see the
whole thing of "evil Mesan corporations out to control the galaxy" as
"conspiracy nonsense".

"but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf
unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not
going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while
they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take
down Grendel. Which they surely will, once they learn the monster has
a mother after all.""
I think it's almost a sure thing that Beowulf will join in, and given
their position within the Solarian League, will persuade others that
either the threat is real or they should just go sit on the sidelines.

Very possible.
Of course, with the size of the Solarian League that could still leave
the Manticore-Haven-Beowulf alliance out-numbered. [Smile]

Always assuming that the League will stay together. From what DW
seems to be setting up, the League is on the verge of shattering
anyways, from internal stresses and what the Alignment has planned.
With all their problems of trying to keep something together, they
might well decide that it's a better idea to just get out of the way
and let Manticore/Haven/Beowulf beat the crap out of the Alignment.

[Paul Howard]

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:09:31 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:52:54 -0500, Paul Howard
"but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf
unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not
going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while
they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take
down Grendel. Which they surely will, once they learn the monster has
a mother after all.""
I think it's almost a sure thing that Beowulf will join in, and given
their position within the Solarian League, will persuade others that
either the threat is real or they should just go sit on the sidelines.

Very possible.
Of course, with the size of the Solarian League that could still leave
the Manticore-Haven-Beowulf alliance out-numbered. [Smile]

Always assuming that the League will stay together. From what DW
seems to be setting up, the League is on the verge of shattering
anyways, from internal stresses and what the Alignment has planned.
With all their problems of trying to keep something together, they
might well decide that it's a better idea to just get out of the way
and let Manticore/Haven/Beowulf beat the crap out of the Alignment.

My mistake as I wasn't clear, I assumed that the Solarian League would
break up and the former League systems that supported the Alignment
would still out-number those who supported the new Alliance.

Of course, there may be plenty that "stay on the side-lines".

[Doug Jones]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 09:35:31 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:09:31 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:52:54 -0500, Paul Howard
"but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf
unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not
going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while
they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take
down Grendel. Which they surely will, once they learn the monster has
a mother after all.""
I think it's almost a sure thing that Beowulf will join in, and given
their position within the Solarian League, will persuade others that
either the threat is real or they should just go sit on the sidelines.

Very possible.
Of course, with the size of the Solarian League that could still leave
the Manticore-Haven-Beowulf alliance out-numbered. [Smile]

Always assuming that the League will stay together. From what DW
seems to be setting up, the League is on the verge of shattering
anyways, from internal stresses and what the Alignment has planned.
With all their problems of trying to keep something together, they
might well decide that it's a better idea to just get out of the way
and let Manticore/Haven/Beowulf beat the crap out of the Alignment.

My mistake as I wasn't clear, I assumed that the Solarian League would
break up and the former League systems that supported the Alignment
would still out-number those who supported the new Alliance.
Of course, there may be plenty that "stay on the side-lines".

OK, not a problem. I'm not sure that the Alignment will end up being
all that large, in terms of numbers of systems. Right now we know
there are 12 or so, and I'm assuming that they have some control over
some of the Frontier groups. How many of the core Solarian worlds, or
even other sectors that would join them is up in the air, but I'm
tending to lean towards "not many." With the break-up, I think
there's going to be a lot of systems/groups too busy fending for
themselves to worry about or who want to get involved in an
interstellar war.

The other thing we know is that Haven isn't "small" except in
comparison to the League, and Manticore just got much bigger. Not to
mention that both of them have a pretty large tech advantage and
warfighting experience over the Sollies. While the Alignment's tech
may somewhat match it, it's also apparent they don't have enough to
really go toe-to-toe with the alliance, and they may not get the time
to build it.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Doug Jones
The other thing we know is that Haven isn't "small" except in
comparison to the League, and Manticore just got much bigger. Not to
mention that both of them have a pretty large tech advantage and
warfighting experience over the Sollies. While the Alignment's tech
may somewhat match it, it's also apparent they don't have enough to
really go toe-to-toe with the alliance, and they may not get the time
to build it.

And, I think one cannot discount Governer Borregas - if he does take
control of his sector of the League, he already has a positive relationship
with both Haven and Manticore.

scott

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Doug Jones
The other thing we know is that Haven isn't "small" except in
comparison to the League, and Manticore just got much bigger. Not to
mention that both of them have a pretty large tech advantage and
warfighting experience over the Sollies. While the Alignment's tech
may somewhat match it, it's also apparent they don't have enough to
really go toe-to-toe with the alliance, and they may not get the time
to build it.

And, I think one cannot discount Governer Borregas - if he does take
control of his sector of the League, he already has a positive relationship
with both Haven and Manticore.

I suspect that Governor Borregas is not alone. That there are
other sector leaders who are 'quite willing to shoulder the burden"
of maintaining "the Solarian Way" in this time of Trial And Universal
Brouhaha. "For the People" of course.

pyotr

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:09:31 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Doug Jones
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:52:54 -0500, Paul Howard

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul Howard

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Offbreed

Post by Offbreed

Post by Loren Pechtel
A cliffhanger? It seems to me things are more stable now than any
time before. We have seen how utterly outclassed the Sollies are and
Mesa isn't going to let them develop good weapons. If Mesa is removed
as a factor I think the Sollies will be more willing to listen to
reason.

As I recall, the Mesans had a backup plan in case that invasion of
Manticore stalled. Something to make sure the Sollies were committed
to the destruction of Manticore.

But their plans have been exposed.

Not really.
Haven and Manticore have limited information about the Alignment *and*
the evidence (while enough to convince the Haven government) would sound
like "conspiracy nonsense" to most within the Solarian League.
It would be easy for the Alignment's "puppets" to make Haven& Manticore
to look like "nutcases".

But that leaves beowulf out of the picture. It's clear that they'll be
a big part of any retribution visited upon the alignment; heck Honor's
great-great-great whatever was grandaddy dettwiler's big bad.
scott

While I see Beowulf *joining* the Haven-Manticore alliance against the
Alignment, I still see that many in the Solarian League would see the
whole thing of "evil Mesan corporations out to control the galaxy" as
"conspiracy nonsense".

"but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf
unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not
going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while
they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take
down Grendel. Which they surely will, once they learn the monster has
a mother after all.""
I think it's almost a sure thing that Beowulf will join in, and given
their position within the Solarian League, will persuade others that
either the threat is real or they should just go sit on the sidelines.

Very possible.
Of course, with the size of the Solarian League that could still leave
the Manticore-Haven-Beowulf alliance out-numbered. [Smile]

Always assuming that the League will stay together. From what DW
seems to be setting up, the League is on the verge of shattering
anyways, from internal stresses and what the Alignment has planned.
With all their problems of trying to keep something together, they
might well decide that it's a better idea to just get out of the way
and let Manticore/Haven/Beowulf beat the crap out of the Alignment.

And it seems entirely likely that "what the Alignment has planned"
will be aimed squarely at Beowulf.

scott

[Loren Pechtel]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:26:06 -0400, Doug Jones

Post by Doug Jones
Always assuming that the League will stay together. From what DW
seems to be setting up, the League is on the verge of shattering
anyways, from internal stresses and what the Alignment has planned.
With all their problems of trying to keep something together, they
might well decide that it's a better idea to just get out of the way
and let Manticore/Haven/Beowulf beat the crap out of the Alignment.

Yeah, especially after Haven deals with the fleet that's heading for
Manticore.

To: Solarian Empire, released to the news media
From: Manticore

Please note the ease with which a portion of the second most powerful
navy stopped your collection of spacegoing targets. Note that they
are only the second most powerful navy, the fleet that stopped you
wouldn't have stood a chance against the current defenses of
Manticore.

It should be obvious that we could destroy the Solarian League if we
so chose. We do not seek to do this, though, as we know that your
ships were actually following the orders of the Mesan Alignment and
not those of the Solarian League.

As we do not like killing, please keep your fleets home and clean
house of those commanders which have been subverted. Please do not
add to the <###,###> sailors you have allowed the Mesan Alignment to
send to their deaths.


Think they could send another fleet with the popular backlash this
would generate?

[Dahak]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:59:02 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Loren Pechtel
To: Solarian Empire, released to the news media
From: Manticore

TO: Solarian League

Adm. Byng in New Tuscany - not a League system.

Adm. Byng in New Tuscany - still not a League system.

Sandra Crandall in Spindle - not a League system.

Massimo Filaretta in Manticore - not a League system, either.

We're sensing a pattern.

Don't tell us /we're/ pushing for war.

Don't start what you can't finish.

Go away.

- Manticore

[Loren Pechtel]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:37 -0400, Dahak

Post by Dahak
On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:59:02 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Loren Pechtel
To: Solarian Empire, released to the news media
From: Manticore

TO: Solarian League
Adm. Byng in New Tuscany - not a League system.
Adm. Byng in New Tuscany - still not a League system.
Sandra Crandall in Spindle - not a League system.
Massimo Filaretta in Manticore - not a League system, either.
We're sensing a pattern.
Don't tell us /we're/ pushing for war.
Don't start what you can't finish.
Go away.
- Manticore

I don't think that would be that effective, the Sollie government
perfectly well knows it's outside official Sollie territory. The
thing is they obviously consider all of human space to be nominally
under their authority.

I'm saying to make it very clear to the Sollie *citizens* that
attacking Manticore just makes for dead sailors. What's going to
happen the next time they try to send a fleet to Manticore??

[John Fairhurst]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:59:02 -0700, Loren Pechtel

Post by Loren Pechtel
As we do not like killing, please keep your fleets home and clean
house of those commanders which have been subverted. Please do not
add to the <###,###> sailors you have allowed the Mesan Alignment to
send to their deaths.

We're past the 100s of thousands lost, if not necessarily dead, with
the loss of Admiral Crandall's Flee... er, Task Force.

DW makes a great play of the fact that increasing casualties are what
is going to keep this war going.

I'm not entirely sure I buy into this but revenge is a powerful
motivation up to a certain point but lose too many and moral will
collapse - this is largely the idea (hope!) behind the NATO actions in
Libya after all.

I have a despairing view as to just how high you'll need to go to
clean house in the Sallies' political structure and I suspect you'll
find yourself running out of superiors before finding a clean person.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:29:56 +0100, John Fairhurst

Post by John Fairhurst
DW makes a great play of the fact that increasing casualties are what
is going to keep this war going.
I'm not entirely sure I buy into this but revenge is a powerful
motivation up to a certain point but lose too many and moral will
collapse - this is largely the idea (hope!) behind the NATO actions in
Libya after all.

I don't buy it, either--in normal circumstances it might but the
Sollies are basically ineffective against Manticore. The only way
they can hope to do anything is use a huge fleet against a planet
without enough missiles to kill the fleet.

I don't see that as being possible with Haven on their side, though.

We saw that with adequate ammo floating in space it's a turkey shoot
for Manticore when they're at least 20:1 down. I would think Haven
would score almost as well against the Sollies because they're up
against almost irrelevant point defense--a vastly superior ability to
penetrate point defense isn't much help when it's so poor anyway.

Haven has plenty of missiles. Split up half the Havenite fleet into
system pickets and the Sollies can't do anything, but Manticore is
free to go teach them a lesson.

Post by John Fairhurst
I have a despairing view as to just how high you'll need to go to
clean house in the Sallies' political structure and I suspect you'll
find yourself running out of superiors before finding a clean person.

There's two types of dirty. I'm sure they're all horribly corrupt but
since Mesa has to manipulate things to get their guys in the right
place it's obvious they don't control most of the government.

Even a totally corrupt guy can see the uselessness of throwing ships
at Manticore.

[Spinner]

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:29:56 +0100, John Fairhurst

Post by John Fairhurst
DW makes a great play of the fact that increasing casualties are what
is going to keep this war going.
I'm not entirely sure I buy into this but revenge is a powerful
motivation up to a certain point but lose too many and moral will
collapse - this is largely the idea (hope!) behind the NATO actions in
Libya after all.

I don't buy it, either--in normal circumstances it might but the
Sollies are basically ineffective against Manticore. The only way
they can hope to do anything is use a huge fleet against a planet
without enough missiles to kill the fleet.
I don't see that as being possible with Haven on their side, though.
We saw that with adequate ammo floating in space it's a turkey shoot
for Manticore when they're at least 20:1 down. I would think Haven
would score almost as well against the Sollies because they're up
against almost irrelevant point defense--a vastly superior ability to
penetrate point defense isn't much help when it's so poor anyway.
Haven has plenty of missiles. Split up half the Havenite fleet into
system pickets and the Sollies can't do anything, but Manticore is
free to go teach them a lesson.

Post by John Fairhurst
I have a despairing view as to just how high you'll need to go to
clean house in the Sallies' political structure and I suspect you'll
find yourself running out of superiors before finding a clean person.

There's two types of dirty. I'm sure they're all horribly corrupt but
since Mesa has to manipulate things to get their guys in the right
place it's obvious they don't control most of the government.
Even a totally corrupt guy can see the uselessness of throwing ships
at Manticore.

Don't forget Sollie R&D that has proven they can develop insane levels
of stealth. DW has ghosted the concept that what they CAN do is
levels beyond what they HAVE done. Haven doesn't have the tech base to
do what Manticore does..yet, but the Sollies do, they just have idiots
in charge right now. Honor's speech in Storm was right.. they have to
obliterate the Solarian empire and chop it up if they're going to
survive and that will take time.

However it's obvious that the war is going to be Manticore, Haven and
that Andermani, with Grayson, as the "allies" with two targets - the
string pullers in Manpower and the SL itself so the body count will go
through the roof.

I suspect we'll see Dame Honor in orbit over old Earth threatening to
turn it into a billard ball. (Eridani Edict is fairly toothless
without the SLN to implement it.) Which means it will be a
desperation shot with the allies' backs to the wall. Would she do
it? No. Do they know that? Also no

Going to be an interesting couple of books as long as DW keeps the 20
page 'bug on the wall' conversations to a reasonable number.
--
2+2!=5 even for extremely large values of 2

[Benjamin]

I like the 20 page "bug on a wall" conversations where Church of God
Awaiting or the Sollies react with irrational outrage to whatever the
Charisians or the Manticorans have done to protect themselves.

Benjamin

Post by Spinner
Going to be an interesting couple of books as long as DW keeps the 20
page 'bug on the wall' conversations to a reasonable number.

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by Spinner
Don't forget Sollie R&D that has proven they can develop insane levels
of stealth. DW has ghosted the concept that what they CAN do is
levels beyond what they HAVE done. Haven doesn't have the tech base to
do what Manticore does..yet, but the Sollies do, they just have idiots
in charge right now. Honor's speech in Storm was right.. they have to
obliterate the Solarian empire and chop it up if they're going to
survive and that will take time.
However it's obvious that the war is going to be Manticore, Haven and
that Andermani, with Grayson, as the "allies" with two targets - the
string pullers in Manpower and the SL itself so the body count will go
through the roof.

I don't think the Sollie body count will go all that high. A SD(P)
comes into a system and gives them 12 hours to evacuate everything
military before it's turned into rubble. These would be long-range
shots, the SD(P) isn't going to be in danger except to a huge ambush.
It would take a *LOT* of ships to surround one so as to force it into
someone's engagement envelope--not that I think SD missiles are going
to get through anyway.

Post by Spinner
I suspect we'll see Dame Honor in orbit over old Earth threatening to
turn it into a billard ball. (Eridani Edict is fairly toothless
without the SLN to implement it.) Which means it will be a
desperation shot with the allies' backs to the wall. Would she do
it? No. Do they know that? Also no

I don't think they need to. Punch out enough of their military and I
think they (other than the Mesa puppets) will see sense.

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Doug Jones

Post by Paul Howard
While I see Beowulf *joining* the Haven-Manticore alliance against the
Alignment, I still see that many in the Solarian League would see the
whole thing of "evil Mesan corporations out to control the galaxy" as
"conspiracy nonsense".

"but unless I miss my guess, you're going to see the rage of Beowulf
unleashed in the universe sometime pretty damned soon now. They're not
going to quibble over the cost of an extra prolong treatment while
they're sinking a fortune into forging the weapons to finally take
down Grendel. Which they surely will, once they learn the monster has
a mother after all.""
I think it's almost a sure thing that Beowulf will join in, and given
their position within the Solarian League, will persuade others that
either the threat is real or they should just go sit on the sidelines.

It would seem to me, that as Manticore is the "go to place" for
cutting edge "physics, material science and engineering" and it's
military applications, Beowulf will turn into the "go to place" for
cutting edge "biochemistry, genetics, and nano-medicine" and the
military applications thereof. Which might not be a good thing, long
term.

tschus
pyotr

[Dahak]

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 23:18:06 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by pyotr filipivich
It would seem to me, that as Manticore is the "go to place" for
cutting edge "physics, material science and engineering" and it's
military applications, Beowulf will turn into the "go to place" for
cutting edge "biochemistry, genetics, and nano-medicine" and the
military applications thereof. Which might not be a good thing, long
term.

Remember where the impeller drive was developed.

-JPB

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Dahak
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 23:18:06 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by pyotr filipivich
It would seem to me, that as Manticore is the "go to place" for
cutting edge "physics, material science and engineering" and it's
military applications, Beowulf will turn into the "go to place" for
cutting edge "biochemistry, genetics, and nano-medicine" and the
military applications thereof. Which might not be a good thing, long
term.

Remember where the impeller drive was developed.

I don't remember. But I'll note "was".

Post by Dahak
-JPB

[Paul Howard]

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Dahak
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 23:18:06 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by pyotr filipivich
It would seem to me, that as Manticore is the "go to place" for
cutting edge "physics, material science and engineering" and it's
military applications, Beowulf will turn into the "go to place" for
cutting edge "biochemistry, genetics, and nano-medicine" and the
military applications thereof. Which might not be a good thing, long
term.

Remember where the impeller drive was developed.

I don't remember. But I'll note "was".

Post by Dahak
-JPB

What Dahak is referring to is that Beowulf had developed the Impeller
Drive *and* David Weber made it very clear that Beowulf is *still* a
center for physics and other non-biological science.

While Beowulf may be better known currently (in the Honorverse) for
biological research, they are still involved in other fields of science.

By the way, while Beowulf may be involved in military applications of
biological sciences, it is very likely that it would be only for
defending against other people's bio-weapons.

Beowulf is known for its strong ethical positions on the proper use of
biological sciences.

It is highly unlikely that they would be involved in developing
bio-weapons to be used against others.

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Paul Howard

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Dahak
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 23:18:06 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by pyotr filipivich
It would seem to me, that as Manticore is the "go to place" for
cutting edge "physics, material science and engineering" and it's
military applications, Beowulf will turn into the "go to place" for
cutting edge "biochemistry, genetics, and nano-medicine" and the
military applications thereof. Which might not be a good thing, long
term.

Remember where the impeller drive was developed.

I don't remember. But I'll note "was".

Post by Dahak
-JPB

What Dahak is referring to is that Beowulf had developed the Impeller
Drive *and* David Weber made it very clear that Beowulf is *still* a
center for physics and other non-biological science.

Ah, this I did not know. "Well, that changes everything."

Post by Paul Howard
While Beowulf may be better known currently (in the Honorverse) for
biological research, they are still involved in other fields of science.
By the way, while Beowulf may be involved in military applications of
biological sciences, it is very likely that it would be only for
defending against other people's bio-weapons.
Beowulf is known for its strong ethical positions on the proper use of
biological sciences.

This is true.

Post by Paul Howard
It is highly unlikely that they would be involved in developing
bio-weapons to be used against others.

[Doug Jones]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 00:22:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Paul Howard

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Dahak
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 23:18:06 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by pyotr filipivich
It would seem to me, that as Manticore is the "go to place" for
cutting edge "physics, material science and engineering" and it's
military applications, Beowulf will turn into the "go to place" for
cutting edge "biochemistry, genetics, and nano-medicine" and the
military applications thereof. Which might not be a good thing, long
term.

Remember where the impeller drive was developed.

I don't remember. But I'll note "was".

Post by Dahak
-JPB

What Dahak is referring to is that Beowulf had developed the Impeller
Drive *and* David Weber made it very clear that Beowulf is *still* a
center for physics and other non-biological science.

Ah, this I did not know. "Well, that changes everything."

Weber also made a very clear point that Beowulf is not just aware of,
but in possession of a lot of Manticore's technology. They've just
agreed with Manticore that it's not a good idea to let the Solarian
Goverment know that. So if Beowulf joins and starts building up,
they're not going to be starting from current Sollie designs.

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Paul Howard
While Beowulf may be better known currently (in the Honorverse) for
biological research, they are still involved in other fields of science.
By the way, while Beowulf may be involved in military applications of
biological sciences, it is very likely that it would be only for
defending against other people's bio-weapons.
Beowulf is known for its strong ethical positions on the proper use of
biological sciences.

This is true.

Post by Paul Howard
It is highly unlikely that they would be involved in developing
bio-weapons to be used against others.

But when you're up against Mesa which doesn't have those ethics (quite
the opposite, in fact), having someone like Beowulf and their
capabilities is extremely handy.

We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Doug Jones
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 00:22:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Paul Howard

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Dahak
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 23:18:06 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by pyotr filipivich
It would seem to me, that as Manticore is the "go to place" for
cutting edge "physics, material science and engineering" and it's
military applications, Beowulf will turn into the "go to place" for
cutting edge "biochemistry, genetics, and nano-medicine" and the
military applications thereof. Which might not be a good thing, long
term.

Remember where the impeller drive was developed.

I don't remember. But I'll note "was".

Post by Dahak
-JPB

What Dahak is referring to is that Beowulf had developed the Impeller
Drive *and* David Weber made it very clear that Beowulf is *still* a
center for physics and other non-biological science.

Ah, this I did not know. "Well, that changes everything."

Weber also made a very clear point that Beowulf is not just aware of,
but in possession of a lot of Manticore's technology. They've just
agreed with Manticore that it's not a good idea to let the Solarian
Goverment know that. So if Beowulf joins and starts building up,
they're not going to be starting from current Sollie designs.

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Paul Howard
While Beowulf may be better known currently (in the Honorverse) for
biological research, they are still involved in other fields of science.
By the way, while Beowulf may be involved in military applications of
biological sciences, it is very likely that it would be only for
defending against other people's bio-weapons.
Beowulf is known for its strong ethical positions on the proper use of
biological sciences.

This is true.

Post by Paul Howard
It is highly unlikely that they would be involved in developing
bio-weapons to be used against others.

But when you're up against Mesa which doesn't have those ethics (quite
the opposite, in fact), having someone like Beowulf and their
capabilities is extremely handy.

That is a "concern". To design a defense, someone must think
"offensively" - "how can I use this in an attack?" And someone may
take the 'defensive' application, and reverse the application.

Post by Doug Jones
We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

Oh, dear.

[Benjamin]

Post by Doug Jones
We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

I thought Gold Peak slagged their computers and they would need Sollie
yardwork to even get underway on their own power? I am talking about
Bing's Battlecruisers.

Benjamin

[Doug Jones]

Post by Benjamin

Post by Doug Jones
We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

I thought Gold Peak slagged their computers and they would need Sollie
yardwork to even get underway on their own power? I am talking about
Bing's Battlecruisers.
Benjamin

IIRC, she didn't slag the computers, she just copied all the data in
them, and then turned them back over to the Sollies. I was referring
to all those nicely available, surrendered BC's that were in the
screening forces at Spindle. For all we know, Torch might like a
former Sollie SD or two.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Doug Jones

Post by Benjamin

Post by Doug Jones
We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

I thought Gold Peak slagged their computers and they would need Sollie
yardwork to even get underway on their own power? I am talking about
Bing's Battlecruisers.
Benjamin

IIRC, she didn't slag the computers, she just copied all the data in
them, and then turned them back over to the Sollies. I was referring
to all those nicely available, surrendered BC's that were in the
screening forces at Spindle. For all we know, Torch might like a
former Sollie SD or two.

Didn't Terekov also capture a handful of BC's at Monica?

The problem with giving all that metal to Torch will be personnel. I
don't think the Sollie designs are as manpower friendly as the latest
Grayson designs.

scott

[Doug Jones]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Doug Jones

Post by Benjamin

Post by Doug Jones
We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

I thought Gold Peak slagged their computers and they would need Sollie
yardwork to even get underway on their own power? I am talking about
Bing's Battlecruisers.
Benjamin

IIRC, she didn't slag the computers, she just copied all the data in
them, and then turned them back over to the Sollies. I was referring
to all those nicely available, surrendered BC's that were in the
screening forces at Spindle. For all we know, Torch might like a
former Sollie SD or two.

Didn't Terekov also capture a handful of BC's at Monica?
The problem with giving all that metal to Torch will be personnel. I
don't think the Sollie designs are as manpower friendly as the latest
Grayson designs.
scott

I would strongly doubt, absent an alliance treaty, that Manticore
would give Torch its most recent designs anyways. If they were to
hand over 10 or 15 of the captured Sollie BC's - or even the CA's and
DD's, I don't think the manpower requirements would strain Torch, and
it would definitely give them enough of a force to make someone think
twice before tangling with them. It also has the advantage of
providing Torch with some very handy training vessels to give them an
even larger number of experienced personnel. I can also see the
remainder of the captured light vessels being used in a similar way
inside the Talbott Quadrant, to beef up and train the local system
defense forces. The SD's on the other hand, aren't very useful.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 18:48:44 -0400, Doug Jones

Post by Doug Jones
even larger number of experienced personnel. I can also see the
remainder of the captured light vessels being used in a similar way
inside the Talbott Quadrant, to beef up and train the local system
defense forces. The SD's on the other hand, aren't very useful.

I can see the SDs being used--think more along the lines of a mobile
fort.

[Loren Pechtel]

Post by Scott Lurndal
Didn't Terekov also capture a handful of BC's at Monica?
The problem with giving all that metal to Torch will be personnel. I
don't think the Sollie designs are as manpower friendly as the latest
Grayson designs.

Agreed--Torch can't man them properly.

However, with the throw weight they can use them horrendously
under-manned and still get use out of them. There would be no damage
control to speak of but if a pirate were facing a SD it wouldn't
matter if it had little more than bridge crew.

[Doug Jones]

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Scott Lurndal
Didn't Terekov also capture a handful of BC's at Monica?
The problem with giving all that metal to Torch will be personnel. I
don't think the Sollie designs are as manpower friendly as the latest
Grayson designs.

Agreed--Torch can't man them properly.
However, with the throw weight they can use them horrendously
under-manned and still get use out of them. There would be no damage
control to speak of but if a pirate were facing a SD it wouldn't
matter if it had little more than bridge crew.

Which is why I suggested the BC's and the CA's. They don't have the
same manning requirements, and from what Weber has shown us in the
recent books, they seem to be more modern than the Sollies SD's. Some
compensator upgrades, and installation of better fire
control/anti-missle capabilities, and you've got something that can
still out do the majority of what is likely to be run into.

[Loren Pechtel]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:03:03 -0400, Doug Jones

Post by Doug Jones

Post by Loren Pechtel

Post by Scott Lurndal
Didn't Terekov also capture a handful of BC's at Monica?
The problem with giving all that metal to Torch will be personnel. I
don't think the Sollie designs are as manpower friendly as the latest
Grayson designs.

Agreed--Torch can't man them properly.
However, with the throw weight they can use them horrendously
under-manned and still get use out of them. There would be no damage
control to speak of but if a pirate were facing a SD it wouldn't
matter if it had little more than bridge crew.

Which is why I suggested the BC's and the CA's. They don't have the
same manning requirements, and from what Weber has shown us in the
recent books, they seem to be more modern than the Sollies SD's. Some
compensator upgrades, and installation of better fire
control/anti-missle capabilities, and you've got something that can
still out do the majority of what is likely to be run into.

Torch can't stand against a realistic attack from Mesa, any decent
warship can deal with virtually any pirate.

[Benjamin]

Post by Doug Jones

Post by Benjamin

Post by Doug Jones
We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

I thought Gold Peak slagged their computers and they would need Sollie
yardwork to even get underway on their own power? I am talking about
Bing's Battlecruisers.
Benjamin

IIRC, she didn't slag the computers, she just copied all the data in
them, and then turned them back over to the Sollies. I was referring
to all those nicely available, surrendered BC's that were in the
screening forces at Spindle. For all we know, Torch might like a
former Sollie SD or two.

No, she slagged the computers. I think it is fair use to post such a
small snippet from Storm From The Shadows page 935:

"She'd considered scuttling them, and under accepted interstellar law,
she would have been entirely within her rights to do so. In the end,
though, she'd decided that actually scuttling them might be a case of
pouring unnecessary salt into a wound. Nothing she could do was going to
make the SLN happy with her, but sailing off into the sunset with every
one of their ships, or blowing them up in orbit, was only likely to piss
them off even worse. Not that she was any too sure that what she'd ended
up doing would make them any happier. Eighty percent of their ships and
ninety-five percent of their personnel were still there, and both ships
and people were pretty much physically intact, but before leaving,
Michelle's boarding parties had deliberately triggered those ships'
internal security charges . . . which had reduced all of the surviving
battlecruisers' central computer nets to so much slagged molecular
circuitry, as inert and useless as a solid block of granite. No one
would be reprogramming those computers; it was going to take physical
replacement if the Sollies ever wanted one of those ships to get
underway under her own power again. That wouldn't necessarily take them
permanently out of service, but it would take months to get a suitably
equipped repair fleet all the way out to New Tuscany. In fact, it might
actually be cheaper and faster in the long run to send out a fleet of
tugs and tow them back to a Solarian shipyard."

I don't know what changed in Mission of Honor to get those ships
equipped to offer to Grayson. Maybe the Sollies never retrieved the
ships from New Tuscany and Gold Peak was overruled about sending the
ships back to Manticore.

[Robert A. Woodward]

Post by Benjamin

Post by Doug Jones

Post by Benjamin

Post by Doug Jones
We also shouldn't forget Torch. If I were Manticore, and in
possession of a lot of front-line Sollie BC's that I considered
"obsolete," I'm sure that Torch would be more than happy to take them
off my hands.

I thought Gold Peak slagged their computers and they would need Sollie
yardwork to even get underway on their own power? I am talking about
Bing's Battlecruisers.
Benjamin

IIRC, she didn't slag the computers, she just copied all the data in
them, and then turned them back over to the Sollies. I was referring

*******

Post by Benjamin

Post by Doug Jones
to all those nicely available, surrendered BC's that were in the
screening forces at Spindle. For all we know, Torch might like a
former Sollie SD or two.

******

Post by Benjamin
No, she slagged the computers.

<SNIP>

Post by Benjamin
I don't know what changed in Mission of Honor to get those ships
equipped to offer to Grayson. Maybe the Sollies never retrieved the
ships from New Tuscany and Gold Peak was overruled about sending the
ships back to Manticore.

Doug Jones is not referring to the battlecruisers (2 squadrons) at
New Tuscany. He is referring to the battlecruisers (1 squadron)
that sailed to Spindle with Cradnall's taskforce (note the words
that I delimitated with '*****' characters.

[mike weber]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:15:22 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner
I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended three
panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able to get the
following information about upcoming publications. You may already know
some of it, maybe all of it.

You know more about my brother's plans than i do.

Of course, i'mporetty much out of the loop on everything, not just
that, these days.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by mike weber

Post by Michelle Steiner
I just returned from the Tucson Festival of Books, where I attended
three panel discussions and one solo talk by David Weber. I was able
to get the following information about upcoming publications. You may
already know some of it, maybe all of it.

You know more about my brother's plans than i do.

I merely listened to what he had to say.

Post by mike weber
Of course, i'mporetty much out of the loop on everything, not just that,
these days.

How come?

BTW, I have a recording of one of his panel discussions from that festival;
I can try to get it to anyone who is interested. It's 30 megs, though.

[mike weber]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:17:38 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by mike weber
Of course, i'mporetty much out of the loop on everything, not just that,
these days.

How come?

Because i'm not-exactly-broke and can't travel much and i tend to be
rather lethargic about communicating with people most of the time...

(Of course, tending three- and five-year-old granddaughters while both
of their parents go to school part-time and Kate works tends to pin me
in one place.)