Discussion:
Grav wave missiles
(too old to reply)
deowll
2010-03-11 09:35:10 UTC
Permalink
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the ship had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however since it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute them all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent Spider drive
attacks.

Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down around any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless detection systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?

After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had the kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.

You guys have fun now.
Don Sample
2010-03-12 00:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the ship had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however since it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute them all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent Spider drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down around any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless detection systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had the kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?

And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target has to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well clear of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
deowll
2010-03-12 06:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the ship had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however since it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute them all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent Spider drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down around any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless detection systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had the kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target has to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well clear of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
Which if true raises the question of why didn't Helen Z and friends start
switching bands?
If part of them went up and part went down what happens? The people she
attacked should have been able to do the same thing.
Post by Don Sample
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
2010-03-12 06:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the ship had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however since it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute them all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent Spider drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down around any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless detection systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had the kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target has to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well clear of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
Which if true raises the question of why didn't Helen Z and friends start
switching bands?
If part of them went up and part went down what happens? The people she
attacked should have been able to do the same thing.
She didn't want to evade combat. She wanted to engage the Peeps, so
that they couldn't go after the freighters she was protecting, who were
slow, and couldn't move to a higher band. The only way they could go was
down, and the Peeps would follow them. Moving down a band makes you a
bit of a sitting duck, if the folks chasing you in hyper can see just
where you made your translation.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
deowll
2010-03-13 03:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the
ship
had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however since it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute them all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent Spider drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down around any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless detection systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had the kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target has to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well clear of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
Which if true raises the question of why didn't Helen Z and friends start
switching bands?
If part of them went up and part went down what happens? The people she
attacked should have been able to do the same thing.
She didn't want to evade combat. She wanted to engage the Peeps, so
that they couldn't go after the freighters she was protecting, who were
slow, and couldn't move to a higher band. The only way they could go was
down, and the Peeps would follow them. Moving down a band makes you a
bit of a sitting duck, if the folks chasing you in hyper can see just
where you made your translation.
So you are stating that commerical shipping could not avoid a military ship
in hyper once it was detected unless it had full blown military drives?
Post by Don Sample
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
2010-03-13 05:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the
ship
had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however since it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute them all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent Spider drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down around any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless detection systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had the kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target has to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well clear of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
Which if true raises the question of why didn't Helen Z and friends start
switching bands?
If part of them went up and part went down what happens? The people she
attacked should have been able to do the same thing.
She didn't want to evade combat. She wanted to engage the Peeps, so
that they couldn't go after the freighters she was protecting, who were
slow, and couldn't move to a higher band. The only way they could go was
down, and the Peeps would follow them. Moving down a band makes you a
bit of a sitting duck, if the folks chasing you in hyper can see just
where you made your translation.
So you are stating that commerical shipping could not avoid a military ship
in hyper once it was detected unless it had full blown military drives?
Yes. Unescorted commercial ships are pretty much dead meat for any
warship, wherever they are, in or out of hyperspace. The trick is
*finding* them in hyperspace.

In the case of Zilwicki's convoy, the Peeps actually had her itinerary.
There are few other choke points along some well travelled routes, such
as the Selker Rift that raiders can hang out in, with a reasonable
chance of catching someone there, but once they *do* catch someone in a
place like that, they have to move out before the response fleet comes
in to kick their ass.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
deowll
2010-03-13 19:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:08:27 -0500, Don Sample
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the
ship
had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however
since
it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute
them
all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent
Spider
drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down
around
any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless
detection
systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had
the
kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target has to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well clear of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
Which if true raises the question of why didn't Helen Z and friends start
switching bands?
If part of them went up and part went down what happens? The people she
attacked should have been able to do the same thing.
She didn't want to evade combat. She wanted to engage the Peeps, so
that they couldn't go after the freighters she was protecting, who were
slow, and couldn't move to a higher band. The only way they could go was
down, and the Peeps would follow them. Moving down a band makes you a
bit of a sitting duck, if the folks chasing you in hyper can see just
where you made your translation.
So you are stating that commerical shipping could not avoid a military ship
in hyper once it was detected unless it had full blown military drives?
Yes. Unescorted commercial ships are pretty much dead meat for any
warship, wherever they are, in or out of hyperspace. The trick is
*finding* them in hyperspace.
In the case of Zilwicki's convoy, the Peeps actually had her itinerary.
There are few other choke points along some well travelled routes, such
as the Selker Rift that raiders can hang out in, with a reasonable
chance of catching someone there, but once they *do* catch someone in a
place like that, they have to move out before the response fleet comes
in to kick their ass.
So how do you catch a ship that can climb into a higher band and leave you
to bay the moon and chase your tail without even moving or knowing where
they did move to if they decide to do so? That would give you about 10
minutes for them to fire or do whatever and you to catch them before they
could re enter hpyper based on The Short Victorious War even if they came
out of hyper.

It would take vertually no time if they did what they did without leaving
hyper

I still think a sphere 44 light minutes across is a fairly large hunk of
space. For the people in system to know jack about a ship doing bad things
in hyper they'd need to have sensors working in hyper. To do much to them
if the bad guys leave hyper you still have 10 minutes. At best that means
your missiles need to be less than 10 light minutes away unless you can do a
hyper jump to get nearer then fire after which you are stuck for 10 minutes.
Post by Don Sample
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
2010-03-13 21:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:08:27 -0500, Don Sample
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to
wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect
anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the
ship
had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however
since
it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to
happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of
ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute
them
all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can
concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to
break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the
limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do so in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing about hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with good beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot with all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent
Spider
drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down
around
any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless
detection
systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in charge think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had
the
kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could
effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target has to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well clear of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
Which if true raises the question of why didn't Helen Z and friends start
switching bands?
If part of them went up and part went down what happens? The people she
attacked should have been able to do the same thing.
She didn't want to evade combat. She wanted to engage the Peeps, so
that they couldn't go after the freighters she was protecting, who were
slow, and couldn't move to a higher band. The only way they could go was
down, and the Peeps would follow them. Moving down a band makes you a
bit of a sitting duck, if the folks chasing you in hyper can see just
where you made your translation.
So you are stating that commerical shipping could not avoid a military ship
in hyper once it was detected unless it had full blown military drives?
Yes. Unescorted commercial ships are pretty much dead meat for any
warship, wherever they are, in or out of hyperspace. The trick is
*finding* them in hyperspace.
In the case of Zilwicki's convoy, the Peeps actually had her itinerary.
There are few other choke points along some well travelled routes, such
as the Selker Rift that raiders can hang out in, with a reasonable
chance of catching someone there, but once they *do* catch someone in a
place like that, they have to move out before the response fleet comes
in to kick their ass.
So how do you catch a ship that can climb into a higher band and leave you
to bay the moon and chase your tail without even moving or knowing where
they did move to if they decide to do so? That would give you about 10
minutes for them to fire or do whatever and you to catch them before they
could re enter hpyper based on The Short Victorious War even if they came
out of hyper.
It would take vertually no time if they did what they did without leaving
hyper
Ships travelling in hyperspace generally do so in the highest band they
can reach. Travelling in a lower band just takes longer and costs more.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
deowll
2010-03-14 01:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:08:27 -0500, Don Sample
The tech break through the old wallers need is the ability to
wait
near/outside the hyper limit of a system in hyper and detect
anyone
coming
and going as they enter hyper then move to join them before the
ship
had
time to escape. In theory that should be possible however
since
it
would
more or less terminate DWs story line I don't expect that to
happen.
But effective energy range is really short, only a couple of light
seconds, which is really spitting range. You'd need thousands of
ships
to blockade a system that way. You'd also have to distribute
them
all
around the system, while the people trying to break out can
concentrate
all their ships on the one or two places where they're trying to
break
out.
Not only that but nothing says you have to go into hyper at the
limit.
You can go on past in normal space at no more cost than simple
time.
Not only do you have to surround the place but you have to do
so
in
great depth.
Are you sure? Think about what Manticore is planning on doing
about
hyper
footprints. They seem to have the situation covered.
Meanwhile the defenders can gather up all their ships with
good
beams
and send them out in a tight group. They jump at one spot
with
all
guns manned and fire as you bear orders. There's no way the
blockaders can maintain that kind of alert for days on end.
This is exactly what Manticore is planning on doing to prevent
Spider
drive
attacks.
Based on what DW has said Manticore is going to do to deal with
possible
Spider drive attacks it would appear that they could do what I
suggested
for the Manticore system proper. That is put a major force down
around
any
hyper foot print near enough to take them out using beams. They will
actually have to be that close to stop spider ships unless
detection
systems
get a heck of a lot better than they are now. The people in
charge
think
they can do it so who am I to argue?
After thinking about it I have to conclude that if the Sollies had
the
kind
of detection systems now being deployed by Manticore they could
effectively
use their wallers to run a blockade.
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint.
Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being something
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
And if you set up your ambush in the gamma band, all your target
has
to
do to avoid it is stay down in the beta band, until it's well
clear
of
the area, or hop up to the delta band.
Which if true raises the question of why didn't Helen Z and friends start
switching bands?
If part of them went up and part went down what happens? The people she
attacked should have been able to do the same thing.
She didn't want to evade combat. She wanted to engage the Peeps, so
that they couldn't go after the freighters she was protecting, who were
slow, and couldn't move to a higher band. The only way they could go was
down, and the Peeps would follow them. Moving down a band makes you a
bit of a sitting duck, if the folks chasing you in hyper can see just
where you made your translation.
So you are stating that commerical shipping could not avoid a military ship
in hyper once it was detected unless it had full blown military drives?
Yes. Unescorted commercial ships are pretty much dead meat for any
warship, wherever they are, in or out of hyperspace. The trick is
*finding* them in hyperspace.
In the case of Zilwicki's convoy, the Peeps actually had her itinerary.
There are few other choke points along some well travelled routes, such
as the Selker Rift that raiders can hang out in, with a reasonable
chance of catching someone there, but once they *do* catch someone in a
place like that, they have to move out before the response fleet comes
in to kick their ass.
So how do you catch a ship that can climb into a higher band and leave you
to bay the moon and chase your tail without even moving or knowing where
they did move to if they decide to do so? That would give you about 10
minutes for them to fire or do whatever and you to catch them before they
could re enter hpyper based on The Short Victorious War even if they came
out of hyper.
It would take vertually no time if they did what they did without leaving
hyper
Ships travelling in hyperspace generally do so in the highest band they
can reach. Travelling in a lower band just takes longer and costs more.
Would you care to revist that thought? ?8;^) I think you just explained why
merchant ships can all travel in the highest regions of the hyper band
current tech allows?
Post by Don Sample
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
2010-03-14 05:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
So how do you catch a ship that can climb into a higher band and
leave you to bay the moon and chase your tail without even moving
or knowing where they did move to if they decide to do so? That
would give you about 10 minutes for them to fire or do whatever
and you to catch them before they could re enter hpyper based on
The Short Victorious War even if they came out of hyper.
It would take vertually no time if they did what they did without
leaving hyper
Ships travelling in hyperspace generally do so in the highest band
they can reach. Travelling in a lower band just takes longer and
costs more.
Would you care to revist that thought? ?8;^) I think you just
explained why merchant ships can all travel in the highest regions of
the hyper band current tech allows?
Most civilian grade hyperdrives don't allow ships to climb any higher
than the gamma or delta bands, though there are exceptions. Passenger
liners tend to have military grade drives, and the RMN had started to
operate some smaller freighters with military grade hyperdrives as of
"In Enemy Hands."

Such drives are probably very expensive, which is why most commercial
ships don't have them, but whatever sort of drive a ship has, it isn't
going to be toodling along in any lower band than it has to.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
deowll
2010-03-14 06:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
So how do you catch a ship that can climb into a higher band and
leave you to bay the moon and chase your tail without even moving
or knowing where they did move to if they decide to do so? That
would give you about 10 minutes for them to fire or do whatever
and you to catch them before they could re enter hpyper based on
The Short Victorious War even if they came out of hyper.
It would take vertually no time if they did what they did without
leaving hyper
Ships travelling in hyperspace generally do so in the highest band
they can reach. Travelling in a lower band just takes longer and
costs more.
Would you care to revist that thought? ?8;^) I think you just
explained why merchant ships can all travel in the highest regions of
the hyper band current tech allows?
Most civilian grade hyperdrives don't allow ships to climb any higher
than the gamma or delta bands, though there are exceptions. Passenger
liners tend to have military grade drives, and the RMN had started to
operate some smaller freighters with military grade hyperdrives as of
"In Enemy Hands."
Such drives are probably very expensive, which is why most commercial
ships don't have them, but whatever sort of drive a ship has, it isn't
going to be toodling along in any lower band than it has to.
Based on modern container ships you almost got it right the first time.
These ships are actually faster than a lot warships. In fact the numbers I
saw for new building suggests that most modern American warships _couldn't_
run one down.

That League merchant ships aren't keeping up with Manticore merchant ships
speed wise according to DW seems odd. The need to compete is obvious and
they have the money to do research and I'd think they'd be willing to pay
for incremental improvements when it means money.

The faster the ship the more cargo you can move in a given time span with
the same number of ships and that is huge money. Then there are get it to
market first and make the killing issues. The HH universe tradition that
cargo ships would be much slower than military ships as a class doesn't
match up well with what is going on, on Earth at this point in time.
Post by Don Sample
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
2010-03-14 06:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
So how do you catch a ship that can climb into a higher band and
leave you to bay the moon and chase your tail without even moving
or knowing where they did move to if they decide to do so? That
would give you about 10 minutes for them to fire or do whatever
and you to catch them before they could re enter hpyper based on
The Short Victorious War even if they came out of hyper.
It would take vertually no time if they did what they did without
leaving hyper
Ships travelling in hyperspace generally do so in the highest band
they can reach. Travelling in a lower band just takes longer and
costs more.
Would you care to revist that thought? ?8;^) I think you just
explained why merchant ships can all travel in the highest regions of
the hyper band current tech allows?
Most civilian grade hyperdrives don't allow ships to climb any higher
than the gamma or delta bands, though there are exceptions. Passenger
liners tend to have military grade drives, and the RMN had started to
operate some smaller freighters with military grade hyperdrives as of
"In Enemy Hands."
Such drives are probably very expensive, which is why most commercial
ships don't have them, but whatever sort of drive a ship has, it isn't
going to be toodling along in any lower band than it has to.
Based on modern container ships you almost got it right the first time.
These ships are actually faster than a lot warships. In fact the numbers I
saw for new building suggests that most modern American warships _couldn't_
run one down.
I looked up a the top speeds of a few container ships, and they tend to
run around 25 knots.

The admitted top speed for most US warships is 30+ knots. (They can
actually go faster than that, but their real top speeds are classified.)

If container ships are so fast, how come they keep getting caught by
Somali "fishing boats"?
Post by deowll
That League merchant ships aren't keeping up with Manticore merchant ships
speed wise according to DW seems odd. The need to compete is obvious and
they have the money to do research and I'd think they'd be willing to pay
for incremental improvements when it means money.
The faster the ship the more cargo you can move in a given time span with
the same number of ships and that is huge money. Then there are get it to
market first and make the killing issues. The HH universe tradition that
cargo ships would be much slower than military ships as a class doesn't
match up well with what is going on, on Earth at this point in time.
Depends on what costs more: Making a ship that can go twice as fast, or
making a ship that can carry twice as much. If making a bigger ship
costs less than making a faster ship, then it makes more economic sense
to go for the big ship.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
deowll
2010-03-14 07:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
Post by Don Sample
Post by deowll
So how do you catch a ship that can climb into a higher band and
leave you to bay the moon and chase your tail without even moving
or knowing where they did move to if they decide to do so? That
would give you about 10 minutes for them to fire or do whatever
and you to catch them before they could re enter hpyper based on
The Short Victorious War even if they came out of hyper.
It would take vertually no time if they did what they did without
leaving hyper
Ships travelling in hyperspace generally do so in the highest band
they can reach. Travelling in a lower band just takes longer and
costs more.
Would you care to revist that thought? ?8;^) I think you just
explained why merchant ships can all travel in the highest regions of
the hyper band current tech allows?
Most civilian grade hyperdrives don't allow ships to climb any higher
than the gamma or delta bands, though there are exceptions. Passenger
liners tend to have military grade drives, and the RMN had started to
operate some smaller freighters with military grade hyperdrives as of
"In Enemy Hands."
Such drives are probably very expensive, which is why most commercial
ships don't have them, but whatever sort of drive a ship has, it isn't
going to be toodling along in any lower band than it has to.
Based on modern container ships you almost got it right the first time.
These ships are actually faster than a lot warships. In fact the numbers I
saw for new building suggests that most modern American warships _couldn't_
run one down.
I looked up a the top speeds of a few container ships, and they tend to
run around 25 knots.
The admitted top speed for most US warships is 30+ knots. (They can
actually go faster than that, but their real top speeds are classified.)
If container ships are so fast, how come they keep getting caught by
Somali "fishing boats"?
Post by deowll
That League merchant ships aren't keeping up with Manticore merchant ships
speed wise according to DW seems odd. The need to compete is obvious and
they have the money to do research and I'd think they'd be willing to pay
for incremental improvements when it means money.
The faster the ship the more cargo you can move in a given time span with
the same number of ships and that is huge money. Then there are get it to
market first and make the killing issues. The HH universe tradition that
cargo ships would be much slower than military ships as a class doesn't
match up well with what is going on, on Earth at this point in time.
Depends on what costs more: Making a ship that can go twice as fast, or
making a ship that can carry twice as much. If making a bigger ship
costs less than making a faster ship, then it makes more economic sense
to go for the big ship.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
A few years back when I looked them up they were talking about building
ships that could do 45 knots. Now all I find seem to doing about 25 knots.
As to the reason why the change might have occurred I found this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1212013/Revealed-The-ghost-fleet-recession-anchored-just-east-Singapore.html .
It seems that more container ships than ships in the US and British Navies
are now at anchor just outside of Singapore. The need for any new building
looks less than pressing. I did know at the time that trying to go faster
was going to drive up fuel costs hugely however turn around times matter.
The price of fuel has been all over the place. The fact remains that if you
need it fast China can't get it to you any faster than the fastest container
ship unless you want to pay for air freight. That is the reason some
American Companies did a little better than expected around Christmas time.
They could actually get late orders to market in time to catch the season.
If you tried to get it from China it wasn't going to be available till after
Christmas.
Grashtel
2010-03-14 03:33:31 UTC
Permalink
[rant] People please edit your posts, having more than ten times as
much quoted material as new is just plain lazy [/rant] (actual message
below).
Post by deowll
So you are stating that commerical shipping could not avoid a military ship
in hyper once it was detected unless it had full blown military drives?
Not nessicarily, if the merchie already has a high enough relative
velocity to get out of sensor range before the warship can match its
velocity then it can escape.

Otherwise the merchie is up against an opponent that has higher
acceleration, a higher top speed, and thanks to its millitary spec
hyper generator is able to transit faster (in the form of crash
transits) probably taking more velocity across the wall. Just how do
you think it is going to escape?
deowll
2010-03-14 05:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grashtel
[rant] People please edit your posts, having more than ten times as
much quoted material as new is just plain lazy [/rant] (actual message
below).
Post by deowll
So you are stating that commerical shipping could not avoid a military ship
in hyper once it was detected unless it had full blown military drives?
Not nessicarily, if the merchie already has a high enough relative
velocity to get out of sensor range before the warship can match its
velocity then it can escape.
Otherwise the merchie is up against an opponent that has higher
acceleration, a higher top speed, and thanks to its millitary spec
hyper generator is able to transit faster (in the form of crash
transits) probably taking more velocity across the wall. Just how do
you think it is going to escape?
I don't. I was trying to get Don to agree that was what he'd said.

I also still think that if you put a lot of sensor pods or just a bunch of
ships in hyper near a system just beyond the hyper limit with a 44 minute
sphere of detection you should be able to detect most or even all the
traffic that might be trying to leave or approach. If your hyper drives are
as good as what Mesa now has you should be able to catch about anything out
there with the possible expection of the very smallest and fastest. On the
other hand nothing of any size can catch you.
Grashtel
2010-03-14 19:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
I don't. I was trying to get Don to agree that was what he'd said.
I also still think that if you put a lot of sensor pods or just a bunch of
ships in hyper near a system just beyond the hyper limit with a 44 minute
sphere of detection you should be able to detect most or even all the
traffic that might be trying to leave or approach. If your hyper drives are
as good as what Mesa now has you should be able to catch about anything out
there with the possible expection of the very smallest and fastest. On the
other hand nothing of any size can catch you.
IMO the Streak drive is less use than you think for catching ships
than you think. The big velocity hit from crossing between bands (48%
between Iota and Theta) means that the Streak ship will be coming out
at a very high relative velocity greatly limiting the engagement time.
Also the velocity bleed off means that as the Iota band's multiplier
is only 20% higher than the Theta band a Streak ship suffers a
considerable loss of relative velocity when it transits up so it has
to spend time accelerating to catch up with the target vessel, which
is time that target can spend making sure its not where the Streak
ship expects it to be.
deowll
2010-03-15 02:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grashtel
Post by deowll
I don't. I was trying to get Don to agree that was what he'd said.
I also still think that if you put a lot of sensor pods or just a bunch of
ships in hyper near a system just beyond the hyper limit with a 44 minute
sphere of detection you should be able to detect most or even all the
traffic that might be trying to leave or approach. If your hyper drives are
as good as what Mesa now has you should be able to catch about anything out
there with the possible expection of the very smallest and fastest. On the
other hand nothing of any size can catch you.
IMO the Streak drive is less use than you think for catching ships
than you think. The big velocity hit from crossing between bands (48%
between Iota and Theta) means that the Streak ship will be coming out
at a very high relative velocity greatly limiting the engagement time.
Also the velocity bleed off means that as the Iota band's multiplier
is only 20% higher than the Theta band a Streak ship suffers a
considerable loss of relative velocity when it transits up so it has
to spend time accelerating to catch up with the target vessel, which
is time that target can spend making sure its not where the Streak
ship expects it to be.
Of course if the chased get hit on a fast pass they still are damaged.

I'm thinking that fighting in a grave wave may just be a bad idea anyway. If
your front sail gets taken out somebody has to take you under tow or you are
dead. If combat occurs outside a gravity wave then you can use missiles so a
heavy beamer has no advantage. The odds of running into an armed to the
teeth bogus merchant hull sooner or later in the gravity wave makes it a bit
dubious however if I'm the Sollies it would still be attractive because a
gravity wave is the only place my ships aren't crap. Arranging a time and
place is going to be the issue.

That being said if you can get to the Theta band and the other guy can't you
made a clean get a way unless of course they know where you call home.

I think DW did have it right about planet killing by mesa. If you keep using
the equipment people will look at who stands to benefit and once they figure
that out...That strongly suggests you'd better never start planet killing or
you can only use the equipment once after which you'd better bury the fact
you ever had the stuff.

This still means that somebody with the urge to kill that exceeds their
concern for any innocent third parties could take out a planet or at least a
continent with very little difficulty. This aspect of the HH universe does
not bear looking at. There doesn't actually appear to be any mechanism to
prevent it even at Manticore.

Michael R N Dolbear
2010-03-12 23:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Sample
No, because the Manticoran system is detecting ships *entering* normal
space from hyperspace, which always creates a hyper-footprint. Your
blockaders would have to detect ships entering hyperspace, from
hyperspace, (and even the right band of hyperspace) which is an entirely
different problem. Has Weber said anything about there being
something
Post by Don Sample
analogous to a hyper-footprint for something going from n-space to
hyperspace?
I once thought that there was and quoted as textev

[SVW ch 26 ]
{Peep CL Alexander detected - Argus pickup}
The impeller source vanished in the sparkle of a hyper footprint, and
he grunted. So much for catching her.
==

Joe Buckley (Dahak) enquired and posted on Baen's Bar
[Baen Snerkers Only] Hyper entry ripples - 23 May 2009

\\> I had to email 'His Weberness' on an unrelated matter, so I
\\> thought I'd toss in a couple Bar-spawned questions...

\\> He said I could share:

\\> "Actually, upward transits into hyperspace are detectable from the
hyper-space end, but not from the normal-space end. I phrased myself
poorly in /The Short Victorious War/ when I described what the Manties
saw when /Alexander/ hypered out. The "sparkle" wasn't really a /hyper/
hyper footprint; it was the effect of a hyper transit by a ship
underway under impeller drive. So, yes, it /was/ a hyper
footprint, but it didn't occur simply because a ship crossed a hyper
wall. It happened because the ship in question was underway under
impeller drive /when/ it crossed the wall. That's never been a factor
in my need to describe what's going on before because everyone's been
using impeller drive when they made their transits. In this case, they
wouldn't be.

"Further, the only reason the Manties were able to pick up
even what they picked up was because they'd already localized
/Alexander/ on their sensors. They knew exactly where she was, despite
her best efforts of stealth, and (as you say) they were literally
right on top of her. (This is how I've always visualized the process
working, but I probably should have made it more explicit. It never
struck me as being necessary. Or, to be more honest, it never even
occurred to me to wonder about whether or not it /might/ be necessary.)

" The hyper transits which haven't been being detected over
the last several books have been made by ships under stealth, which
hadn't previously been localized, and which were either not using
their impellers at all or under absolutely minimum power when they
[made] transit. Under those circumstances, hyper footprints from
upward translations are effectively [indetectable], even by the kinds
of arrays the Manties have in place to protect the home system."
==
--
Mike D
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