Discussion:
lack of light units
(too old to reply)
deowll
2010-04-08 02:11:25 UTC
Permalink
DW has gotten called on this before and he gave a truly lame answer or no
answer but the problem still exists. On any list of ftl ships the Star
Kingdom should have a large number of the smallest size ships that are being
used to provide escorts for shipping. Please note I'm not saying that DW
needs to pontificate about them; they just need to show up on the list with
the note they are mainly for providing escorts to shipping. DW should have
said, They're a normal part of commerce in the HH universe and they aren't
playing much of a role in the War. Okay so in 1920 PD Manticore did have 418
DD but over half of them were in the reserve fleet. Most of what is left
seem to have been used mainly in the Havenite war though I don't have the
details on their orders of course. I do know ships don't do you much good
in the reserve fleet and an old DD is pretty much as good as a new DD for
normal anti-pirate escort work as long it has been properly maintained. The
only real pirates that were using large and powerful military units, that we
know about, were the fugitive State Security ships and they weren't making
enough to stay in business which is how they ended up working for
Manpower/Mesa/ the Alignment. They needed a patron and the only one they
could find was Manpower/Mesa.

In the HH universe piracy is pretty common according to DW. If you don't run
convoys shipping vanishes. As a major shipper, the largest in the SL, the
Star Kingdom is pretty remarkable in being pretty much out of the
escort/anti-piracy business and have been for a long time. If you don't
think so just look at the numbers of light units they have in almost any
list of ships DW has provided. DW has also said Manticore has control of
other wormholes than their own at least to a degree and that implies
providing security around the wormholes and even between them if needed.

Something is truly rotten. There is no way they have enough of the right
kinds of ships in service to do it.


After a lot of further thinking I suppose some options are open in that most
pirates aren't that well armed but DW did not encourage the idea of armed
merchants. We know they exist anyway. They don't seem to be exactly uncommon
and some businesses like Manpower and Janick seem to us a lot of them.
Enough that you could call such ships a normal and important part of their
fleets though system defense may take umbrage at them in some locations.
However according to DW some of the Manpower/Janick ships are also sometime
pirates. You don't want to find yourself alone with them if you are an
unarmed merchantman. Thus the need for even more escorts.


The only other options I can come up with is that Manticore is paying their
allies, with light units, to run patrols or their business partners are
running patrols. Please note a business partner can be a neutral party to
the war. A DD from Beowulf could have gone through a wormhole to Tever's
star and might have been allowed to play escort all the way to Haven or at
least to the nearest location where somebody else such as the Republic of
Haven could have taken over. A DD from Beowulf should have been able to play
escort anywhere in the SL while a Manticore DD would not have been allowed
to move around openly inside the SL. I think Manticore merchants making
deals inside the SL with local system defense forces most likely explains
how Manticore shipping could travel safely inside the SL.

A DD from Zanzibar could have run patrol over most of the verge though it
isn't apt to have done so unless a third party paid their government. We
know that the Grayson ship yard made a frigate or three for Torch paid for
by Hauptman so those exist and while such a ship would be extremely lame by
most standards it should still work for playing escort because very few
pirates are going to attack any class of military ship no matter how lame. I
don't know if many of these exist or not. I do understand that Hauptman
merchants visiting Torch would have derived some benefit from the ships. I
don't know if the ships ever acted as escorts.

Our last look at Sedimore reported that it was running some small stuff
including cruisers which, again, were not doubt largely needed to play
escort. Your Fortresses largely defends your system if you are small fry and
of course there is a Manticore navel base there.

We also know Hauptman does _not_ like pirates. We also know he has at least
some armed merchants but I kind of doubt that the Star Kingdom is letting
him run his own war fleet of frigates though I could be wrong. In fact I
kind of think I've read that he has a few seriously armed merchant
hulls/military ships that are used to hunt pirates. I don't know maybe he's
paying some minor power for the use of warships and crews?

I guess I'm coming down on the side of thinking that maybe the Commerce
Department and the shipping Magnets gave up on the Navy because it was
constantly grabbing all the small units needed to fight normal pirates and
run merchant escorts for the war with Haven and just contracted the job out
to various parties they trusted that weren't going to abandon their
customers and go off to fight Havenites. If this is the answer I wish DW had
just said so because it looks like he just bleeped up here to me not that I
could have done 1/20th as well as he has as far as creating a fantasy
reality goes.

If you have a better answer please share it.
JohnFair
2010-05-10 14:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by deowll
DW has gotten called on this before and he gave a truly lame answer or no
answer but the problem still exists. On any list of ftl ships the Star
Kingdom should have a large number of the smallest size ships that are being
used to provide escorts for shipping. Please note I'm not saying that DW
needs to pontificate about them; they just need to show up on the list with
the note they are mainly for providing escorts to shipping. DW should have
said, They're a normal part of commerce in the HH universe and they aren't
playing much of a role in the War. Okay so in 1920 PD Manticore did have 418
DD but over half of them were in the reserve fleet. Most of what is left
seem to have been used mainly in the Havenite war though I don't have the
details on their orders of course. I do  know ships don't do you much good
in the reserve fleet and an old DD is pretty much as good as a new DD for
normal anti-pirate escort work as long it has been properly maintained. The
only real pirates that were using large and powerful military units, that we
know about, were the fugitive State Security ships and they weren't making
enough to stay in business which is how they ended up working for
Manpower/Mesa/ the Alignment. They needed a patron and the only one they
could find was Manpower/Mesa.
The thing is that the DDs need crews as much as all the other ships
that the navy's using and the older models won't have the massively
increased automation that has found its way into new build and won't
be worth converting. Much as the admiralty needs to try and maintain
the anti piracy patrols, having a fleet to defend your homeworlds
against the Havenites probably comes ahead of supporting the merchant
marine - budget deficits can be sorted out once survival is assured. ]

Most antipiracy patrols were being run by cruisers either singley or
in small squadrons, so they had little to fear even from moderately
well armed opposition.
Post by deowll
In the HH universe piracy is pretty common according to DW. If you don't run
convoys shipping vanishes. As a major shipper, the largest in the SL, the
Star Kingdom is pretty remarkable in being pretty much out of the
escort/anti-piracy business and have been for a long time. If you don't
think so just look at the numbers of light units they have in almost any
list of ships DW has provided. DW has also said Manticore has control of
other wormholes than their own at least to a degree and that implies
providing security around the wormholes and even between them if needed.
Something is truly rotten. There is no way they have enough of the right
kinds of ships in service to do it.
The wormwole exits are defended by fortresses - another demand for the
stretched manpower (except possibly the one in the Andermani Empire
and the one near Beowulf). Fortunately there is no 'between' for
wormholes - you're at your start point, end point, or totally lost.
The real or hyperspace locations between the mouth and exit points are
irrelevant.
Post by deowll
After a lot of further thinking I suppose some options are open in that most
pirates aren't that well armed but DW did not encourage the idea of armed
merchants. We know they exist anyway. They don't seem to be exactly uncommon
and some businesses like  Manpower and Janick seem to us a lot of them.
Enough that you could call such ships a normal and important part of their
fleets though system defense may take umbrage at them in some locations.
However according to DW some of the Manpower/Janick ships are also sometime
pirates. You don't want to find yourself alone with them if you are an
unarmed merchantman. Thus the need for even more escorts.
The only other options I can come up with is that Manticore is paying their
allies, with light units, to run patrols or their business partners are
running patrols. Please note a business partner can be a neutral party to
the war. A DD from Beowulf could have gone through a wormhole to Tever's
star and might have been allowed to play escort all the way to Haven or at
least to the nearest location where somebody else such as the Republic of
Haven could have taken over. A DD from Beowulf should have been able to play
escort anywhere in the SL while a Manticore DD would not have been allowed
to move around openly inside the SL. I think Manticore merchants making
deals inside the SL with local system defense forces most likely explains
how Manticore shipping could travel safely inside the SL.
A DD from Zanzibar could have run patrol over most of the verge though it
isn't apt to have done so unless a third party paid their government. We
know that the Grayson ship yard made a frigate or three for Torch paid for
by Hauptman so those exist and while such a ship would be extremely lame by
most standards it should still work for playing escort because very few
pirates are going to attack any class of military ship no matter how lame. I
don't know if many of these exist or not. I do understand that Hauptman
merchants visiting Torch would have derived some benefit from the ships. I
don't know if the ships ever acted as escorts.
Our last look at Sedimore reported that it was running some small stuff
including cruisers which, again, were not doubt largely needed to play
escort. Your Fortresses largely defends your system if you are small fry and
of course there is a Manticore navel base there.
We also know Hauptman does _not_ like pirates. We also know he has at least
some  armed merchants but I kind of doubt that the Star Kingdom is letting
him run his own war fleet of frigates though I could be wrong. In fact I
kind of think I've read that he has a few seriously armed merchant
hulls/military ships that are used to hunt pirates. I don't know maybe he's
paying some minor power for the use of warships and crews?
I guess I'm coming down on the side of thinking that maybe the Commerce
Department and the shipping Magnets gave up on the Navy because it was
constantly grabbing all the small units needed to fight normal pirates and
run merchant escorts for the war with Haven and just contracted the job out
to various parties they trusted that weren't going to abandon their
customers and go off to fight Havenites. If this is the answer I wish DW had
just said so because it looks like he just bleeped up here to me not that I
could have done  1/20th as well as he has as far as creating a fantasy
reality goes.
If you have a better answer please share it.
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