Discussion:
Mutineer's Moon oops--Dahak is actually dead
(too old to reply)
Loren Pechtel
2012-05-11 18:30:20 UTC
Permalink
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.

Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Bob Casanova
2012-05-12 17:04:15 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:30:20 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.
Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Given the "magic to us" nature of both FTL drive systems,
not to mention the teleport, do you *really* think this is a
major concern?

Or consider the fact that the gravitation at the surface is
still only one-sixth G, which would reduce the load on the
underlying structure considerably. But if you still think
it's a potential problem, just assume the structure is
reinforced with unobtanium and let it go; most SF is about
the willing suspension of disbelief so long as *known*
science isn't violated.
--
Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Loren Pechtel
2012-05-12 20:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:30:20 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.
Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Given the "magic to us" nature of both FTL drive systems,
not to mention the teleport, do you *really* think this is a
major concern?
I do agree it's minor. I just realized it would happen and I don't
recall any discussion of it in the past.
Post by Bob Casanova
Or consider the fact that the gravitation at the surface is
still only one-sixth G, which would reduce the load on the
underlying structure considerably. But if you still think
it's a potential problem, just assume the structure is
reinforced with unobtanium and let it go; most SF is about
the willing suspension of disbelief so long as *known*
science isn't violated.
Earth rock will flow with 10 miles of pressure. That means lunar rock
would flow with 60 miles of pressure. That's got to be something
awfully strong!
Bob Casanova
2012-05-13 17:50:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 May 2012 13:25:18 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:30:20 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.
Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Given the "magic to us" nature of both FTL drive systems,
not to mention the teleport, do you *really* think this is a
major concern?
I do agree it's minor. I just realized it would happen and I don't
recall any discussion of it in the past.
Post by Bob Casanova
Or consider the fact that the gravitation at the surface is
still only one-sixth G, which would reduce the load on the
underlying structure considerably. But if you still think
it's a potential problem, just assume the structure is
reinforced with unobtanium and let it go; most SF is about
the willing suspension of disbelief so long as *known*
science isn't violated.
Earth rock will flow with 10 miles of pressure. That means lunar rock
would flow with 60 miles of pressure. That's got to be something
awfully strong!
But the point is that the rock isn't the supporting
structure; it's just surface camouflage; Dahak is a *ship*
with a rock overlay. And the objection is completely moot
when applied to any of the other ships you mentioned, since
they don't have even the camouflage; they're simply
structures of alloys.
--
Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Loren Pechtel
2012-05-14 04:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
On Sat, 12 May 2012 13:25:18 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:30:20 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.
Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Given the "magic to us" nature of both FTL drive systems,
not to mention the teleport, do you *really* think this is a
major concern?
I do agree it's minor. I just realized it would happen and I don't
recall any discussion of it in the past.
Post by Bob Casanova
Or consider the fact that the gravitation at the surface is
still only one-sixth G, which would reduce the load on the
underlying structure considerably. But if you still think
it's a potential problem, just assume the structure is
reinforced with unobtanium and let it go; most SF is about
the willing suspension of disbelief so long as *known*
science isn't violated.
Earth rock will flow with 10 miles of pressure. That means lunar rock
would flow with 60 miles of pressure. That's got to be something
awfully strong!
But the point is that the rock isn't the supporting
structure; it's just surface camouflage; Dahak is a *ship*
with a rock overlay. And the objection is completely moot
when applied to any of the other ships you mentioned, since
they don't have even the camouflage; they're simply
structures of alloys.
But it's going to be something like lunar mass.
Robert A. Woodward
2012-05-14 04:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Sat, 12 May 2012 13:25:18 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:30:20 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.
Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Given the "magic to us" nature of both FTL drive systems,
not to mention the teleport, do you *really* think this is a
major concern?
I do agree it's minor. I just realized it would happen and I don't
recall any discussion of it in the past.
Post by Bob Casanova
Or consider the fact that the gravitation at the surface is
still only one-sixth G, which would reduce the load on the
underlying structure considerably. But if you still think
it's a potential problem, just assume the structure is
reinforced with unobtanium and let it go; most SF is about
the willing suspension of disbelief so long as *known*
science isn't violated.
Earth rock will flow with 10 miles of pressure. That means lunar rock
would flow with 60 miles of pressure. That's got to be something
awfully strong!
But the point is that the rock isn't the supporting
structure; it's just surface camouflage; Dahak is a *ship*
with a rock overlay. And the objection is completely moot
when applied to any of the other ships you mentioned, since
they don't have even the camouflage; they're simply
structures of alloys.
But it's going to be something like lunar mass.
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
--
Robert Woodward <***@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
Bob Casanova
2012-05-14 17:03:15 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 May 2012 21:55:33 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Robert A. Woodward"
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Sat, 12 May 2012 13:25:18 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:30:20 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.
Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Given the "magic to us" nature of both FTL drive systems,
not to mention the teleport, do you *really* think this is a
major concern?
I do agree it's minor. I just realized it would happen and I don't
recall any discussion of it in the past.
Post by Bob Casanova
Or consider the fact that the gravitation at the surface is
still only one-sixth G, which would reduce the load on the
underlying structure considerably. But if you still think
it's a potential problem, just assume the structure is
reinforced with unobtanium and let it go; most SF is about
the willing suspension of disbelief so long as *known*
science isn't violated.
Earth rock will flow with 10 miles of pressure. That means lunar rock
would flow with 60 miles of pressure. That's got to be something
awfully strong!
But the point is that the rock isn't the supporting
structure; it's just surface camouflage; Dahak is a *ship*
with a rock overlay. And the objection is completely moot
when applied to any of the other ships you mentioned, since
they don't have even the camouflage; they're simply
structures of alloys.
But it's going to be something like lunar mass.
Uh-huh. Referring back to my prior post regarding the
structure material... So? The materials used were never
addressed, IIRC, and the theoretical strength of various
materials has never been even closely approached here on
Earth, leaving a lot of room for improvement by an
interstellar civilization that lasted for many thousands of
years.
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
Thanks, but Loren specifically mentioned the time during
which Dahak and the others were unpowered as the problem. To
that, I can only reiterate "unobtainium". ;-)

Continuity problems and errors involving known science
(ships traveling at 2c in normal space, for instance) are
noteworthy; IMHO this one doesn't fit in that category.
--
Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
Loren Pechtel
2012-05-14 17:59:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
Thanks, but Loren specifically mentioned the time during
which Dahak and the others were unpowered as the problem. To
that, I can only reiterate "unobtainium". ;-)
Continuity problems and errors involving known science
(ships traveling at 2c in normal space, for instance) are
noteworthy; IMHO this one doesn't fit in that category.
No, he does have a point. Dahak doesn't need to be as massive as the
moon he was pretending to be.
Bob Casanova
2012-05-15 18:56:48 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 May 2012 10:59:25 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
Thanks, but Loren specifically mentioned the time during
which Dahak and the others were unpowered as the problem. To
that, I can only reiterate "unobtainium". ;-)
Continuity problems and errors involving known science
(ships traveling at 2c in normal space, for instance) are
noteworthy; IMHO this one doesn't fit in that category.
No, he does have a point. Dahak doesn't need to be as massive as the
moon he was pretending to be.
After reconsidering I have to say I agree; the only
requirement would be for Dahak's gravity generator to be
fully operational by the time there were people here
sufficiently (re)advanced to notice the tides, which I
believe was the case in the internal timeline.
--
Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
David Simpson
2012-05-15 03:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
Thanks, but Loren specifically mentioned the time during
which Dahak and the others were unpowered as the problem. To
that, I can only reiterate "unobtainium". ;-)
Um, if I remember correctly, CompCent (sp) was powered down, but automatics
were still running. (and when they fired, it delayed the repairs, and
increased the time CompCent was down) So the grav generator could have
been one of the "automatics".
--
_______________________________________________
/ David Simpson \
| ***@NOnyxSPAM.net |
| http://www.nyx.net/~dsimpson |
|We got to go to the crappy town where I'm a hero.|
\_______________________________________________/
Bob Casanova
2012-05-15 18:57:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 May 2012 22:46:07 -0500, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by David Simpson
Post by David Simpson
Post by Bob Casanova
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
Thanks, but Loren specifically mentioned the time during
which Dahak and the others were unpowered as the problem. To
that, I can only reiterate "unobtainium". ;-)
Um, if I remember correctly, CompCent (sp) was powered down, but automatics
were still running. (and when they fired, it delayed the repairs, and
increased the time CompCent was down) So the grav generator could have
been one of the "automatics".
Point taken.
--
Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
David Simpson
2012-05-18 05:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 14 May 2012 22:46:07 -0500, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by David Simpson
Post by David Simpson
Post by Bob Casanova
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
Thanks, but Loren specifically mentioned the time during
which Dahak and the others were unpowered as the problem. To
that, I can only reiterate "unobtainium". ;-)
Um, if I remember correctly, CompCent (sp) was powered down, but
automatics were still running. (and when they fired, it delayed the
repairs, and increased the time CompCent was down) So the grav
generator could have been one of the "automatics".
Point taken.
Of course at a guess, a grav field that big would be a high powered
device, and I'd have a hard time believing it was left on, but then
again, if that was all that kept the ship from going squish, you'd keep
it high on the "keep this powered up" list. ;-)

But they also said a human body could not stand the forces on it, at
18mph, at one time!

And it is Sci-Fi, and not Hard Sci-fi either!


(please note, I'm not picking on anyone person, just adding my $0.02!)
--
_______________________________________________
/ David Simpson \
| ***@NOnyxSPAM.net |
| http://www.nyx.net/~dsimpson |
|We got to go to the crappy town where I'm a hero.|
\_______________________________________________/
Offbreed
2012-05-16 19:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Simpson
Um, if I remember correctly, CompCent (sp) was powered down, but automatics
were still running. (and when they fired, it delayed the repairs, and
increased the time CompCent was down)  So the grav generator could have
been one of the "automatics".
Didn't Anu try to shut down all power, expecting to recover a usable
ship?
David Simpson
2012-05-18 05:12:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Offbreed
Post by David Simpson
Um, if I remember correctly, CompCent (sp) was powered down, but
automati
cs
Post by David Simpson
were still running. (and when they fired, it delayed the repairs, and
increased the time CompCent was down)  So the grav generator could
have been one of the "automatics".
Didn't Anu try to shut down all power, expecting to recover a usable
ship?
If I remember correctly (said that already), he TRIED to, but CompCent
stopped the last few (one???) and was able to slowly rebuild. Otherwise
Anu would have taken the ship as planned. It then took a LONG time to
rebulid all the others. At time, the power resources were so low, that
CompCent itself had to be turned off, and during a few of those time, Anu
sent a few up, but the automatics blew them away, but lowered the
reserves even farther, which meant CompCent was offline longer than
planned, and could not help the "good guys" in the early days. I'm not
100% on this, as my copy is 200+ miles away, and I can't check. I know
it was explanied in the earlier parts of the book. By the time he remade
enough of them to be a true combat force, Anu had dug in at the south
pole.
--
_______________________________________________
/ David Simpson \
| ***@NOnyxSPAM.net |
| http://www.nyx.net/~dsimpson |
|We got to go to the crappy town where I'm a hero.|
\_______________________________________________/
Offbreed
2012-05-19 03:59:03 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by David Simpson
Post by Offbreed
Didn't Anu try to shut down all power, expecting to recover a usable
ship?
If I remember correctly (said that already), he TRIED to, but CompCent
stopped the last few (one???) and was able to slowly rebuild.  Otherwise
Anu would have taken the ship as planned.
Anu expected that shutting off all power would not destroy Dahak,
therefore, shutting off all power should not destroy Dahak. The
mechanism by which Dahak would survive a total shutdown might yet to
be reasoned out, but there should be one.

Or else a Captain of Engineering did not know what he was doing.
Loren Pechtel
2012-05-14 17:59:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 May 2012 21:55:33 -0700, "Robert A. Woodward"
Post by Robert A. Woodward
Post by Loren Pechtel
But it's going to be something like lunar mass.
Why? They left a gravity generator behind in _Armageddon
Inheritance_ which matched the gravity field. Dahak could be
considerably less massive than the Moon, but would be surrounded by
an appropriate generated gravity field.
Good point. It's still going to be incredible pressure on the center
of Dahak, though.
Louann Miller
2012-05-14 22:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Loren Pechtel
Good point. It's still going to be incredible pressure on the center
of Dahak, though.
I don't think you'd like "The Algebraist" by Iain (F.) Banks.
Vanyel Ashekevron
2013-02-18 18:56:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 May 2012 21:05:01 -0700, Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Sat, 12 May 2012 13:25:18 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
Post by Bob Casanova
On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:30:20 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Loren Pechtel
Post by Loren Pechtel
There's nothing he could be built out of that could resist the self
gravity of an object that large. Of course technology could
counteract that but not when he was basically out of power.
Likewise the various ships they brought back would also have been
destroyed this way.
Given the "magic to us" nature of both FTL drive systems,
not to mention the teleport, do you *really* think this is a
major concern?
I do agree it's minor. I just realized it would happen and I don't
recall any discussion of it in the past.
Post by Bob Casanova
Or consider the fact that the gravitation at the surface is
still only one-sixth G, which would reduce the load on the
underlying structure considerably. But if you still think
it's a potential problem, just assume the structure is
reinforced with unobtanium and let it go; most SF is about
the willing suspension of disbelief so long as *known*
science isn't violated.
Earth rock will flow with 10 miles of pressure. That means lunar rock
would flow with 60 miles of pressure. That's got to be something
awfully strong!
But the point is that the rock isn't the supporting
structure; it's just surface camouflage; Dahak is a *ship*
with a rock overlay. And the objection is completely moot
when applied to any of the other ships you mentioned, since
they don't have even the camouflage; they're simply
structures of alloys.
But it's going to be something like lunar mass.
fic·tion (fkshn)
n.
1.
a. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent
actuality but has been invented.
b. The act of inventing such a creation or pretense.
2. A lie.
3.
a. A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is
not necessarily based on fact.
b. The category of literature comprising works of this kind, including
novels and short stories.
4. Law Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by
the narrator.

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