Why is the Alignment trying to wreck the SL?

Two main reasons, I expect.

1) Following the Plan. The Plan has been around for generations, and
while there's flexibility in the details, it's always been about replacing
ALL government (not just the SL) with Better People.

2) They recognize that the SL is doomed no matter what they do. Give it
a few more centuries and even the most careful management will be to no
avail. So, rather than continue to ride the bloated corpse down the river to
the falls, they're picking their own moment to administer the coup de grace.

Dave Van Domelen, notes that the whole "Manticore is Britain, Haven is
France, etc" metaphor breaks down around Mesa and the SL...

deowll

2010-04-08 19:20:07 UTC

Post by Dave Van Domelen
Two main reasons, I expect.
1) Following the Plan. The Plan has been around for generations, and
while there's flexibility in the details, it's always been about replacing
ALL government (not just the SL) with Better People.

I'm not sure this was the original plan in detail. I'm sure the plan has
changed through the generations. The SL was taking control of vast regions
and running them directly in the shell and the verge. So far nothing could
stop them. The only reason they are bleeped now is poor leadership allowing
a major tech gap to develop which may in part be due to tinkering by the
Alignment, then equally poor leaderships choices caused at least in part by
the Alignment. If the Alignment had decided to go the other way and jsut
taken control of the SL and run it their way they could have.

Post by Dave Van Domelen
2) They recognize that the SL is doomed no matter what they do. Give it
a few more centuries and even the most careful management will be to no
avail. So, rather than continue to ride the bloated corpse down the river to
the falls, they're picking their own moment to administer the coup de grace.

The only reason the SL is doomed would be the slow growth of bad government
and corruption while drifting away from its original goals combined with a
time lag in long distance communications. I think the only reason the SL has
held together as long as it has is that it does provide a service and the
League charter prevented it from becoming to intrusive at lower levels in
the core worlds.

The service is preventing wars and fighting priacy. As long as it stuck
with that, the SL had an almost unlimited potential even with the harsh
limits in communication.

The problem is the shell and verge are being converted into conquered
provinces of an empire and the governers are so remote they aren't really
under effective control and the system _is_ masively corrupt. It was just a
matter of time till the provinces started to pop off.

Mr. D has made clear the Alignment plans to take over with tighter control
from the top down over a much larger region. This still doesn't address the
communications lag nor does it show me any method for preventing the
government from going bad due to ineffective leadership. In fact they
rather obviously mean to become very intrusive in the lives of their
citizens. They intend to control mate selection and they clearly intend to
do away with surplus inferior humans. They intend to impose a police state
and I don't think this one is going to be a nanny state not that those seem
to work all that well either. The ones I know anything about are all
economic shambles. This may sound weird but the indigenous populations of
all known nanny states are all dying out and being replaced by outsiders
from other cultures. It actually looks like in a few more generations
Native Europeans will have joined the Neanderthal.

The Reniasnce Factor leaders seem to have some immunty, at least for now,
from Mr. D. because he admitted he can't replace them. That is, if he bumps
one off or even seriously offends them or they just get cold feet, the
replacment, if any, may not be able to get the same level of local support
and or even be a part of the Factor. This suggests that orginzation is at
least a shaky as the SL at least for now.

Post by Dave Van Domelen
Dave Van Domelen, notes that the whole "Manticore is Britain, Haven is
France, etc" metaphor breaks down around Mesa and the SL...

Drak Bibliophile

2010-04-08 16:40:50 UTC

Post by deowll
I know they are trying to create a star empire. Cute. If you carefully read
the last few books they darn near have control of the SL as it stands.
Under the circumstances wrecking it to try and grab off some of the pieces
doesn't compute even if you hope to get control of all of them in time. All
they have to do is to continue to expand their control of the elite and
they have it all anyway. Sure some systems aren't going to like it but then
they don't need to after a certain point. If you are winning why take a
huge chance and by throwing everything into the lap of the God of War?
Victory is never certain and it doesn't seem to be their strong point.
Infiltrating and taking over the elite is their strong point.
Further example: If they actually had control of the Republic to the point
of being able to wreck it why not just keep it and promote their own until
they had total control?

The problem with the current Solarian League (for the Alignment) is that the
SL is a 'weak Federal system'. Even if they had complete control over the
SL bureaucracy, they could not control individual member systems especially
controlling the lives of individuals within the Solarian League.

As for the Haven Republic, it is always easier to destroy/wreck something
than it is to control it. In addition, at the time of the destruction of
the original Haven Republic the Alignment wasn't ready for the final part of
their plan. Of course, controlling the Haven Republic is meaningless if
they can't completely control the member systems of the Solarian League.

--
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile), AIM id DrakeBookLover
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*

deowll

2010-04-08 19:51:37 UTC

Post by Drak Bibliophile

Post by deowll
I know they are trying to create a star empire. Cute. If you carefully
read the last few books they darn near have control of the SL as it
stands. Under the circumstances wrecking it to try and grab off some of
the pieces doesn't compute even if you hope to get control of all of them
in time. All they have to do is to continue to expand their control of the
elite and they have it all anyway. Sure some systems aren't going to like
it but then they don't need to after a certain point. If you are winning
why take a huge chance and by throwing everything into the lap of the God
of War? Victory is never certain and it doesn't seem to be their strong
point. Infiltrating and taking over the elite is their strong point.
Further example: If they actually had control of the Republic to the
point of being able to wreck it why not just keep it and promote their
own until they had total control?

In the Core Worlds; true. In the shell and verge this is by no means true.
The sector governors are dictators and those are the part that is growing.

Post by Drak Bibliophile
As for the Haven Republic, it is always easier to destroy/wreck something
than it is to control it. In addition, at the time of the destruction of
the original Haven Republic the Alignment wasn't ready for the final part
of their plan. Of course, controlling the Haven Republic is meaningless
if they can't completely control the member systems of the Solarian
League.

Destruction is easier than creation. How ever if you have agents in a
position to take down a nation and you do, you also took out your agents or
many of them. At the best they may not be as influential. They had a
location in which they could have, maybe, taken over and started to create
the new world order and a strong military base and they threw it away. Maybe
that was all they could do but throwing away opportunities is something that
can cost you.

Now The Republic is a strong and maturing star nation. It seriously doesn't
like them and their agents are not in a position of control. Young and
others are important players but if tree cats move to The Republic they are
going to be at risk.

Post by Drak Bibliophile
--
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile), AIM id DrakeBookLover
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*

pyotr filipivich

2010-04-08 21:04:25 UTC

Because they can?

Because they think they can run things better?

Because they're not "wrecking it" they're making "much needed
reforms"?
-
pyotr filipivich.
Just about the time you finally see light at the end of the tunnel,
you find out it's a Government Project to build more tunnel.

deowll

2010-04-08 22:54:56 UTC

Post by pyotr filipivich
Because they can?
Because they think they can run things better?
Because they're not "wrecking it" they're making "much needed
reforms"?
-

I suppose so but it looks like to me they would have done better and been
more sure of success if they had just continued to take over without causing
all the most formidible homicidal types around to want to collect blood
debt. Homicidal types that they forged and tempered until they are the best
in the business.

Rolling dice with the god of war is always chancy. When you start wading
neck deep through blood to get to your objectives you never can tell who
might decide to take it personal and come after you and in this case if our
mama hexipuma with the dead cubs (HH) finds out who they are all she wants
is for them to know who's killing them before they die. Queen EW and the
President EP share that view and will do what they can to see to it that she
gets to execute her plan. Their cabinets are united in support of that
objective.

I would say that while the Alignment leaders think they can execute their
plan their execution of said plan has already resulted in many very
formidable people wanting to execute them. Gvien their choice of methods it
is likely that the numbers of such people will continue to grow with time.

Somebody is going to be disappointed.

Post by pyotr filipivich
pyotr filipivich.
Just about the time you finally see light at the end of the tunnel,
you find out it's a Government Project to build more tunnel.

Don Sample

2010-04-08 23:58:38 UTC

Post by pyotr filipivich
Because they can?
Because they think they can run things better?
Because they're not "wrecking it" they're making "much needed
reforms"?
-

I suppose so but it looks like to me they would have done better and been
more sure of success if they had just continued to take over without causing
all the most formidible homicidal types around to want to collect blood
debt. Homicidal types that they forged and tempered until they are the best
in the business.
Rolling dice with the god of war is always chancy. When you start wading
neck deep through blood to get to your objectives you never can tell who
might decide to take it personal and come after you and in this case if our
mama hexipuma with the dead cubs (HH) finds out who they are all she wants
is for them to know who's killing them before they die. Queen EW and the
President EP share that view and will do what they can to see to it that she
gets to execute her plan. Their cabinets are united in support of that
objective.
I would say that while the Alignment leaders think they can execute their
plan their execution of said plan has already resulted in many very
formidable people wanting to execute them. Gvien their choice of methods it
is likely that the numbers of such people will continue to grow with time.
Somebody is going to be disappointed.

The Alignment really doesn't seem to be maneuvering to bring about the
breakup of the Solarian League. They just see the breakup as
inevitable, and are maneuvering so that they'll be the ones to pick up
the pieces after that happens.

They look on themselves as the Foundation of the new galactic empire
that will rise from the ashes of the Solarian League. They wanted to
take out Haven, and Manticore because they were starting to look like
they might form a competing Foundation.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

deowll

2010-04-09 04:17:38 UTC

Post by Don Sample

Post by pyotr filipivich
Because they can?
Because they think they can run things better?
Because they're not "wrecking it" they're making "much needed
reforms"?
-

I suppose so but it looks like to me they would have done better and
been
more sure of success if they had just continued to take over without causing
all the most formidible homicidal types around to want to collect blood
debt. Homicidal types that they forged and tempered until they are the best
in the business.
Rolling dice with the god of war is always chancy. When you start wading
neck deep through blood to get to your objectives you never can tell who
might decide to take it personal and come after you and in this case if our
mama hexipuma with the dead cubs (HH) finds out who they are all she wants
is for them to know who's killing them before they die. Queen EW and the
President EP share that view and will do what they can to see to it that she
gets to execute her plan. Their cabinets are united in support of that
objective.
I would say that while the Alignment leaders think they can execute their
plan their execution of said plan has already resulted in many very
formidable people wanting to execute them. Gvien their choice of methods it
is likely that the numbers of such people will continue to grow with time.
Somebody is going to be disappointed.

I totally disagree. The SL is an organization with one goal and one active
arm. The SLN which is supposed to prevent wars and protect
commerce/shipping. As long as it does its job the SL is not likely to come
apart because the core worlds are basicly content to with things as they
are.

The primary objective of getting the SLN tied up in a war with Manticore is
to publicly shatter the aura of invincibility of the SLN and to destroy a
large part of the fleet. Once the public decides that the SLN is no longer
able to force everyone to toe the line, the political fracture lines that
have been masked because nobody wants to face battle fleet are going to tear
apart.

The Alignment isn't just maneuvering to collect the pieces. They are
maneuvering to precipitate a crisis and cause the breakup to occur now.
Without such a trigger event, combined with Battle Fleet being crippled, the
SL might have continued to stagger along for centuries longer and the core
worlds might have continued to support the SL/SLN more or less indefinitely
even if remote sectors broke away.

So, no they aren't waiting for it to die. They are working hard to break it
up in a cluster of bloody civil wars intended to occur at the same time so
the SLN will simply be overwhelmed.

Post by Don Sample
They look on themselves as the Foundation of the new galactic empire
that will rise from the ashes of the Solarian League. They wanted to
take out Haven, and Manticore because they were starting to look like
they might form a competing Foundation.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

Loren Pechtel

2010-04-27 18:37:02 UTC

Post by pyotr filipivich
Because they can?
Because they think they can run things better?
Because they're not "wrecking it" they're making "much needed
reforms"?
-

Agreed--they acted too soon. Given their personalities, though, that
pretty much has to be expected.

deowll

2010-05-03 02:04:12 UTC

Post by pyotr filipivich
Because they can?
Because they think they can run things better?
Because they're not "wrecking it" they're making "much needed
reforms"?
-

Agreed--they acted too soon. Given their personalities, though, that
pretty much has to be expected.

If you look at their records they have been willing to wait a very long time
to act but you do sort of get the feeling that the present generation is
rather less patient on the other hand the head man wasn't at all sure the
plan would be complete in his lifetime even with genes for long life and the
treatments.

Loren Pechtel

2010-05-03 14:37:57 UTC

Post by Loren Pechtel
Agreed--they acted too soon. Given their personalities, though, that
pretty much has to be expected.

The fact they waited that long doesn't mean anything. They have
enough sense not to try to put their plan into operation when there's
no chance of success.

However, when there's a possibility of success they'll go for it even
though that's long before they should have acted.

deowll

2010-05-04 04:51:38 UTC

Post by Loren Pechtel
Agreed--they acted too soon. Given their personalities, though, that
pretty much has to be expected.

The fact they waited that long doesn't mean anything. They have
enough sense not to try to put their plan into operation when there's
no chance of success.
However, when there's a possibility of success they'll go for it even
though that's long before they should have acted.

I think DW will see to it that you are correct but so far there is nothing
that makes it clear that the RF can't assume control of at least part of the
SL after the SLN gets slammed and looses internal control.

I'm perturbed that they don't seem to be respecting the old rule that a
house divided against itself can't stand. Way to many people at the bottom
of the organization would not support the Alignments/RFs true objectives if
they knew what they were. Their actual base of support for their true
objectives is tiny and their plan shows no respect for the KISS principal.

While they have powerful operatives in place in the RF, a publicly known
group, these people get support based on political positions violently at
odds with those of the Alignment. The assumption that it will become
expedient to change those positions is dubious for the long term nor could
they afford to have their true positions become known any time soon.

Loren Pechtel

2010-05-04 13:38:42 UTC

Post by deowll
I'm perturbed that they don't seem to be respecting the old rule that a
house divided against itself can't stand. Way to many people at the bottom
of the organization would not support the Alignments/RFs true objectives if
they knew what they were. Their actual base of support for their true
objectives is tiny and their plan shows no respect for the KISS principal.

I certainly agree--but I think that's inherent in how they are
described rather than a flaw for plot reasons.

Post by deowll
While they have powerful operatives in place in the RF, a publicly known
group, these people get support based on political positions violently at
odds with those of the Alignment. The assumption that it will become
expedient to change those positions is dubious for the long term nor could
they afford to have their true positions become known any time soon.

I fully agree--but they think they can keep it hidden. They have a
*MAJOR* case of arrogance.

deowll

2010-05-05 03:02:56 UTC

I certainly agree--but I think that's inherent in how they are
described rather than a flaw for plot reasons.

I would think it _is_ most likely a flaw for plot reasons but who are we to
complain?

I fully agree--but they think they can keep it hidden. They have a
*MAJOR* case of arrogance.

I'm not sure all these people are portrayed as being that naive. It was
noted that the leaders of the RF are in fact rather skittish about this plan
as well they should be. They have each climbed to great power and they have
a lot on the line. While they stand to gain a great deal of power if the
plan succeeds it won't do a thing for the standard of living of any of them.

Loren Pechtel

2010-05-05 05:38:18 UTC

I fully agree--but they think they can keep it hidden. They have a
*MAJOR* case of arrogance.

The fact that they are trying it now when they don't have a realistic
fleet is a sign of major arrogance. All it takes is one spy who gets
out and they're in deep trouble. That spy already has although they
don't know it yet.

deowll

2010-05-06 01:42:49 UTC

I fully agree--but they think they can keep it hidden. They have a
*MAJOR* case of arrogance.

Who says they don't have a realistic fleet? DW didn't.

Individually we are told Mannerheim (sp) is the strongest but the others
were all supposed to have something to add. The fact is we don't know how
many ships or what kinds the RF has.

We do know they don't want to take on an intact SLN. I will give you that.

Don Sample

2010-05-06 03:42:32 UTC

Post by Loren Pechtel
The fact that they are trying it now when they don't have a realistic
fleet is a sign of major arrogance. All it takes is one spy who gets
out and they're in deep trouble. That spy already has although they
don't know it yet.

Who says they don't have a realistic fleet? DW didn't.
Individually we are told Mannerheim (sp) is the strongest but the others
were all supposed to have something to add. The fact is we don't know how
many ships or what kinds the RF has.
We do know they don't want to take on an intact SLN. I will give you that.

There are the various SDFs that belong to the Alignment members, plus
the new fleet that they have under construction at Darius. It might
have been better to wait until they'd finished getting the first ships
of that fleet worked up, though.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

Loren Pechtel

2010-05-06 03:54:08 UTC

Who says they don't have a realistic fleet? DW didn't.
Individually we are told Mannerheim (sp) is the strongest but the others
were all supposed to have something to add. The fact is we don't know how
many ships or what kinds the RF has.
We do know they don't want to take on an intact SLN. I will give you that.

They don't have a fleet. They committed everything they had to Oyster
Bay--and that included the ships with the crews meant to train the
crews of the fleet they're going to build.

Don Sample

2010-05-06 04:58:35 UTC

Who says they don't have a realistic fleet? DW didn't.
Individually we are told Mannerheim (sp) is the strongest but the others
were all supposed to have something to add. The fact is we don't know how
many ships or what kinds the RF has.
We do know they don't want to take on an intact SLN. I will give you that.

They don't have a fleet. They committed everything they had to Oyster
Bay--and that included the ships with the crews meant to train the
crews of the fleet they're going to build.

Each of the "Renaissance Factor" worlds has a System Defence Force, and
those forces combined make a very respectable sized fleet, and unlike
the Battle Fleet types, some intel on just how capable the Manties and
Havenites are has been making it to the tops of their command chains.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

Loren Pechtel

2010-04-27 18:37:02 UTC

Post by deowll
I know they are trying to create a star empire. Cute. If you carefully read
the last few books they darn near have control of the SL as it stands. Under
the circumstances wrecking it to try and grab off some of the pieces doesn't
compute even if you hope to get control of all of them in time. All they
have to do is to continue to expand their control of the elite and they have
it all anyway. Sure some systems aren't going to like it but then they don't
need to after a certain point. If you are winning why take a huge chance and
by throwing everything into the lap of the God of War? Victory is never
certain and it doesn't seem to be their strong point. Infiltrating and
taking over the elite is their strong point.
Further example: If they actually had control of the Republic to the point
of being able to wreck it why not just keep it and promote their own until
they had total control?

They have the ability to manipulate it, they don't truly have control.

If their true objectives became known they would very quickly lose
control of the Sollies. Thus they have to use their control to make
it self-destruct rather than to take it over.

deowll

2010-05-03 02:01:38 UTC