_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by David Weber

[Lynn McGuire]

_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber

https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/

Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB. I hope that there will be an
eleventh book in the series as there are no published plans at the
moment that I can find.

David Weber sells his books by the pound. One has to get past that when
reading his books. His books have characters of thousands and details
by the ton. If you don't like this then I would stay away.

The book leads off with more details about the Ghaba, the murderers of
the human race. The Ghaba found an outlying human outpost in 2378 and
by 2430 all fourteen systems of the human race, including Sol and Terra
have been destroyed. Before this, Safehold was established in 2421 with
eight million colonists over 400 light years away from Earth.

Book ten starts with the world war between the Holy Church and the
Empire of Charis has been won by Charis using a technology jump from
15th century weapons and transportation to 19th century technology and
weapons via an AI stored away nine centuries earlier. The world is
rebuilding and trying to steal the new Charis technology which Charis is
trying to give away for free !

BTW, David Weber has already written one potential end of the Safehold
story at:
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html

My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 3.9 out of 5 stars (780 reviews)

Lynn

[Bob Casanova]

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:46:50 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB. I hope that there will be an
eleventh book in the series as there are no published plans at the
moment that I can find.
David Weber sells his books by the pound. One has to get past that when
reading his books. His books have characters of thousands and details
by the ton. If you don't like this then I would stay away.
The book leads off with more details about the Ghaba, the murderers of
the human race. The Ghaba found an outlying human outpost in 2378 and
by 2430 all fourteen systems of the human race, including Sol and Terra
have been destroyed. Before this, Safehold was established in 2421 with
eight million colonists over 400 light years away from Earth.
Book ten starts with the world war between the Holy Church and the
Empire of Charis has been won by Charis using a technology jump from
15th century weapons and transportation to 19th century technology and
weapons via an AI stored away nine centuries earlier. The world is
rebuilding and trying to steal the new Charis technology which Charis is
trying to give away for free !
BTW, David Weber has already written one potential end of the Safehold
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html

Thanks! I had no idea he'd written this pastiche, and I
damned near laughed myself sick, especially when I got to
"General Bahnakson and Admiral DeVries". Really good, even
though he *did* title it "How the Safehold Series *Won't*
End".

Of course, he missed the Honorverse and Prince Roger, but
they might appear in a sequel; the "mopping up" part, maybe.
;-)

Post by Lynn McGuire
My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 3.9 out of 5 stars (780 reviews)

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:46:50 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB. I hope that there will be an
eleventh book in the series as there are no published plans at the
moment that I can find.
David Weber sells his books by the pound. One has to get past that when
reading his books. His books have characters of thousands and details
by the ton. If you don't like this then I would stay away.
The book leads off with more details about the Ghaba, the murderers of
the human race. The Ghaba found an outlying human outpost in 2378 and
by 2430 all fourteen systems of the human race, including Sol and Terra
have been destroyed. Before this, Safehold was established in 2421 with
eight million colonists over 400 light years away from Earth.
Book ten starts with the world war between the Holy Church and the
Empire of Charis has been won by Charis using a technology jump from
15th century weapons and transportation to 19th century technology and
weapons via an AI stored away nine centuries earlier. The world is
rebuilding and trying to steal the new Charis technology which Charis is
trying to give away for free !
BTW, David Weber has already written one potential end of the Safehold
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html

Thanks! I had no idea he'd written this pastiche, and I
damned near laughed myself sick, especially when I got to
"General Bahnakson and Admiral DeVries". Really good, even
though he *did* title it "How the Safehold Series *Won't*
End".
Of course, he missed the Honorverse and Prince Roger, but
they might appear in a sequel; the "mopping up" part, maybe.

The Gabha just better pray that they don't end up dealing with Aral
Harrington-Vorkosigan and his sisters.

Post by Bob Casanova
;-)

Post by Lynn McGuire
My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 3.9 out of 5 stars (780 reviews)

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:46:50 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB. I hope that there will be an
eleventh book in the series as there are no published plans at the
moment that I can find.
David Weber sells his books by the pound. One has to get past that when
reading his books. His books have characters of thousands and details
by the ton. If you don't like this then I would stay away.
The book leads off with more details about the Ghaba, the murderers of
the human race. The Ghaba found an outlying human outpost in 2378 and
by 2430 all fourteen systems of the human race, including Sol and Terra
have been destroyed. Before this, Safehold was established in 2421 with
eight million colonists over 400 light years away from Earth.
Book ten starts with the world war between the Holy Church and the
Empire of Charis has been won by Charis using a technology jump from
15th century weapons and transportation to 19th century technology and
weapons via an AI stored away nine centuries earlier. The world is
rebuilding and trying to steal the new Charis technology which Charis is
trying to give away for free !
BTW, David Weber has already written one potential end of the Safehold
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html

Thanks! I had no idea he'd written this pastiche, and I
damned near laughed myself sick, especially when I got to
"General Bahnakson and Admiral DeVries". Really good, even
though he *did* title it "How the Safehold Series *Won't*
End".
Of course, he missed the Honorverse and Prince Roger, but
they might appear in a sequel; the "mopping up" part, maybe.

The Gabha just better pray that they don't end up dealing with Aral
Harrington-Vorkosigan and his sisters.

Which brings this to mind:

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5429944/1/The-Short-Victorious-Vor

[Wolffan]

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB. I hope that there will be an
eleventh book in the series as there are no published plans at the
moment that I can find.
David Weber sells his books by the pound. One has to get past that when
reading his books. His books have characters of thousands and details
by the ton. If you don't like this then I would stay away.
The book leads off with more details about the Ghaba, the murderers of
the human race. The Ghaba found an outlying human outpost in 2378 and
by 2430 all fourteen systems of the human race, including Sol and Terra
have been destroyed. Before this, Safehold was established in 2421 with
eight million colonists over 400 light years away from Earth.
Book ten starts with the world war between the Holy Church and the
Empire of Charis has been won by Charis using a technology jump from
15th century weapons and transportation to 19th century technology and
weapons via an AI stored away nine centuries earlier. The world is
rebuilding and trying to steal the new Charis technology which Charis is
trying to give away for free !
BTW, David Weber has already written one potential end of the Safehold
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html
My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 3.9 out of 5 stars (780 reviews)
Lynn

It’s easily the worst of the Safehold books. Merlin is catching the Honor
disease; he’s vanishing from his own story. Merlin ain’t around for the
majority of the important events of the last two thirds of the book.
Especially not for the very last chapter. There are simply too many minor
charcters who have become major characters over time... just like the
Honorverse.

I had been re-reading all the Safehold books, in order, when a new one came
out. This makes the drop-off in quality very obvious. I don’t think that
I’ll be re-reading this one any time soon.

I had been getting the Safehold books, just like the early Honor books and
the Bazhell books, in hardback (where possible). This one will be the last
one I get in hardback, unless the next one is substantially better. Which,
based on events in the Honor and Bazhell books, is unlikely.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series. I
read the well printed and well bound MMPB. I hope that there will be an
eleventh book in the series as there are no published plans at the
moment that I can find.
David Weber sells his books by the pound. One has to get past that when
reading his books. His books have characters of thousands and details
by the ton. If you don't like this then I would stay away.
The book leads off with more details about the Ghaba, the murderers of
the human race. The Ghaba found an outlying human outpost in 2378 and
by 2430 all fourteen systems of the human race, including Sol and Terra
have been destroyed. Before this, Safehold was established in 2421 with
eight million colonists over 400 light years away from Earth.
Book ten starts with the world war between the Holy Church and the
Empire of Charis has been won by Charis using a technology jump from
15th century weapons and transportation to 19th century technology and
weapons via an AI stored away nine centuries earlier. The world is
rebuilding and trying to steal the new Charis technology which Charis is
trying to give away for free !
BTW, David Weber has already written one potential end of the Safehold
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html
My rating: 4 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 3.9 out of 5 stars (780 reviews)
Lynn

It’s easily the worst of the Safehold books. Merlin is catching the Honor
disease; he’s vanishing from his own story. Merlin ain’t around for the

That became painfully obvious when he fell in love & got married, and it
was just a few lines tossed in as asides.

[David Johnston]

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

E.g., Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which I have not read, but
Google is my friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_Board_of_Control

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.
--

I would say "The Exordium" & the Liaden "Crystal Duology" are space opera,
but even those have got some years on them now..

[Bob Casanova]

On 23 Nov 2020 18:16:46 GMT, the following appeared in

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

I would say "The Exordium" & the Liaden "Crystal Duology" are space opera,
but even those have got some years on them now..

I've read a couple of the Liaden Universe stories; they
never really appealed to me, but as I remember them I
wouldn't call them space opera. To me, space opera is best
applied to things like "Doc" Smith's Lensman and Skylark
series, and others like them - "Violet coruscating rays of
energy incredible". Close to Bulwer-Lytton phraseology, but
with more interesting plots and better characterization. ;-)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Bob Casanova
On 23 Nov 2020 18:16:46 GMT, the following appeared in

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber

https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

I would say "The Exordium" & the Liaden "Crystal Duology" are space opera,
but even those have got some years on them now..

I've read a couple of the Liaden Universe stories; they
never really appealed to me, but as I remember them I
wouldn't call them space opera. To me, space opera is best
applied to things like "Doc" Smith's Lensman and Skylark
series, and others like them - "Violet coruscating rays of
energy incredible". Close to Bulwer-Lytton phraseology, but
with more interesting plots and better characterization. ;-)
--

In general they aren't; that's why I called out the Crystal Duology.

[David Johnston]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.
--

I would say "The Exordium" & the Liaden "Crystal Duology" are space opera,
but even those have got some years on them now..

Try the Indranan War trilogy.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber

https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.
--

I would say "The Exordium" & the Liaden "Crystal Duology" are space opera,
but even those have got some years on them now..

Try the Indranan War trilogy.

Read the first two, and I wouldn't have applied that characterization
to them, though I suppose there is a good bit of Star Wars small team
action going on.

[David Johnston]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

I dunno about that. Still plenty of interplanetary adventure stories.
But Safehold isn't really one of them.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 12:26:41 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by David Johnston

Post by David Johnston

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

I dunno about that. Still plenty of interplanetary adventure stories.
But Safehold isn't really one of them.

See my reply to J. Clarke elsethread for the reason I
responded as I did.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.

And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Hmmm.  I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.
And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.

Why do you assume there is a dividing line?

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Hmmm.  I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.
And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.

Why do you assume there is a dividing line?

So Military Science Fiction is a sub-genre of Space Opera ?

Lynn

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 18:02:53 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Hmmm.  I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.
And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.

Why do you assume there is a dividing line?

So Military Science Fiction is a sub-genre of Space Opera ?

Not as I see it. They're essentially skew lines, like
science and religion. See my reply to J. Clarke elsethread.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series
(Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Hmmm.  I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.
And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.

Why do you assume there is a dividing line?

So Military Science Fiction is a sub-genre of Space Opera ?

No. Both are sub-genres of Science Fiction that sometimes overlap IMO.

[Sjouke Burry]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.
And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.

Why do you assume there is a dividing line?

So Military Science Fiction is a sub-genre of Space Opera ?
Lynn

Or just overlap between?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber

https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Hmmm.  I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.
And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.

Why do you assume there is a dividing line?

Always a risky business, considering how many dividing lines are
semipermeable.

[Joy Beeson]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Always a risky business, considering how many dividing lines are
semipermeable.

Very few are *SEMI*permeable.

[David Johnston]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:58:13 -0600, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

In space, no one can hear you sing!

Hmmm.  I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

Something can be SF without being space opera.

Yep. Space opera, as the term was applied originally, is
almost nonexistent today.

Charles Gannon, Alan Dean Foster, and quite a few others would beg to
differ with you.
And I am not sure where the dividing line between space opera and
military science fiction is.
Lynn

There is obviously venn diagram overlap. Space opera is an adventure
story which spans multiple planets. Military science fiction is
specifically science fiction about military conflict. If it doesn't
portray military conflict as an adventure (the Forever War, Hammers
Slammers, Dorsai) then it's not space opera. Likewise if its confined
to one planet it isn't space opera. Contrariwise if it doesn't focus on
military conflict...if it is for example Alacrity Fitzhugh and Hobart
Floyt, or Flinx, then it isn't military science fiction.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:18:38 GMT, the following appeared in

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

The earliest SF of which I'm aware involved both submarines
and trips to the moon, none of which was "space opera", at
least as I understand the term. "Doc" Smith's stuff, good as
it is, qualifies, but IMHO David's doesn't.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
E.g., Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which I have not read, but
Google is my friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_Board_of_Control

And it's rather interesting how relevant MacDonough's Song
from "As Easy As ABC" continues to be... ;-)

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:18:38 GMT, the following appeared in

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

The earliest SF of which I'm aware involved both submarines
and trips to the moon, none of which was "space opera", at
least as I understand the term. "Doc" Smith's stuff, good as
it is, qualifies, but IMHO David's doesn't.

I wouldn't call Safehold Space Opera, but the Manticore novels with
their immense fleet actions and war over a vast scale involving at
least four interstellar empires certainly does.

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
E.g., Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which I have not read, but
Google is my friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_Board_of_Control

And it's rather interesting how relevant MacDonough's Song
from "As Easy As ABC" continues to be... ;-)

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:08:35 -0500, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:18:38 GMT, the following appeared in

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

The earliest SF of which I'm aware involved both submarines
and trips to the moon, none of which was "space opera", at
least as I understand the term. "Doc" Smith's stuff, good as
it is, qualifies, but IMHO David's doesn't.

I wouldn't call Safehold Space Opera, but the Manticore novels with
their immense fleet actions and war over a vast scale involving at
least four interstellar empires certainly does.

OK, I did a bit of research and it looks like you're
correct; the current generally-accepted definition would
include *any* adventure story, large-scale or otherwise, set
in space, regardless of how well written. I tend to
disagree; to me, the term is a bit pejorative, and denotes
stories which are straight adventure, (usually with flowery
or "purple" prose; I mentioned Bulwer-Lytton elsethread),
with little or no intricate plotting or characterization;
for visual equivalents, contrast the 1930s "Flash Gordon"
with either "Caprica" or the BSG remake. Using the current
definition and applying its equivalent to more mainstream
literature, just about anything which isn't a "thought
piece" or a "slice of life" story would seem to be "X
opera", anything from O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels to
"Macbeth" and many others, which all follow the definition
as cited in Wiki. Sorry, but to me that makes it fairly
useless as a description.

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
E.g., Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which I have not read, but
Google is my friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_Board_of_Control

And it's rather interesting how relevant MacDonough's Song
from "As Easy As ABC" continues to be... ;-)

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:08:35 -0500, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:18:38 GMT, the following appeared in

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

The earliest SF of which I'm aware involved both submarines
and trips to the moon, none of which was "space opera", at
least as I understand the term. "Doc" Smith's stuff, good as
it is, qualifies, but IMHO David's doesn't.

I wouldn't call Safehold Space Opera, but the Manticore novels with
their immense fleet actions and war over a vast scale involving at
least four interstellar empires certainly does.

OK, I did a bit of research and it looks like you're
correct; the current generally-accepted definition would
include *any* adventure story, large-scale or otherwise, set
in space, regardless of how well written. I tend to
disagree; to me, the term is a bit pejorative, and denotes
stories which are straight adventure, (usually with flowery
or "purple" prose; I mentioned Bulwer-Lytton elsethread),
with little or no intricate plotting or characterization;
for visual equivalents, contrast the 1930s "Flash Gordon"
with either "Caprica" or the BSG remake. Using the current
definition and applying its equivalent to more mainstream
literature, just about anything which isn't a "thought
piece" or a "slice of life" story would seem to be "X
opera", anything from O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels to
"Macbeth" and many others, which all follow the definition
as cited in Wiki. Sorry, but to me that makes it fairly
useless as a description.

I agree which is why I do not use that definition. I look at it more
simply. The closer it is in scale to the Lensman series, the closer
it is to Space Opera. The farther away it is, the farther it is from
Space Opera. Space Opera and MilSF overlap but they are not the same.
I don't recall the author or title now but there is a short series
involving a Roman Cohort (equivalent in modern terms to a battalion I
believe) which was kidnapped by space aliens and put to work dealing
with various situations where the aliens weren't allowed to use
weapons more advanced than those used by the locals, with much detail
of the tactics and equipage. That was most assuredly MilSF, but it
was not at all Space Opera--space didn't even enter into it except as
something passed through to get to the next fight.

For me the distinction you make is between "sci fi" and the good
stuff. Flash Gordon wouldn't be Space Opera--the scale is too
constrained for one thing--but it would be Sci Fi.

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
E.g., Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which I have not read, but
Google is my friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_Board_of_Control

And it's rather interesting how relevant MacDonough's Song
from "As Easy As ABC" continues to be... ;-)

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 20:34:01 -0500, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:08:35 -0500, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:18:38 GMT, the following appeared in

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_ by
David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons. It is military science fiction though.

Maybe they sing a lot?

Hmmm. I believe there was, in the late 19th and early 20th
centuries, a lot of SF-ish pulp being written that involved
nothing further out than the atmosphere.

The earliest SF of which I'm aware involved both submarines
and trips to the moon, none of which was "space opera", at
least as I understand the term. "Doc" Smith's stuff, good as
it is, qualifies, but IMHO David's doesn't.

I wouldn't call Safehold Space Opera, but the Manticore novels with
their immense fleet actions and war over a vast scale involving at
least four interstellar empires certainly does.

OK, I did a bit of research and it looks like you're
correct; the current generally-accepted definition would
include *any* adventure story, large-scale or otherwise, set
in space, regardless of how well written. I tend to
disagree; to me, the term is a bit pejorative, and denotes
stories which are straight adventure, (usually with flowery
or "purple" prose; I mentioned Bulwer-Lytton elsethread),
with little or no intricate plotting or characterization;
for visual equivalents, contrast the 1930s "Flash Gordon"
with either "Caprica" or the BSG remake. Using the current
definition and applying its equivalent to more mainstream
literature, just about anything which isn't a "thought
piece" or a "slice of life" story would seem to be "X
opera", anything from O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels to
"Macbeth" and many others, which all follow the definition
as cited in Wiki. Sorry, but to me that makes it fairly
useless as a description.

I agree which is why I do not use that definition. I look at it more
simply. The closer it is in scale to the Lensman series, the closer
it is to Space Opera. The farther away it is, the farther it is from
Space Opera. Space Opera and MilSF overlap but they are not the same.
I don't recall the author or title now but there is a short series
involving a Roman Cohort (equivalent in modern terms to a battalion I
believe) which was kidnapped by space aliens and put to work dealing
with various situations where the aliens weren't allowed to use
weapons more advanced than those used by the locals, with much detail
of the tactics and equipage. That was most assuredly MilSF, but it
was not at all Space Opera--space didn't even enter into it except as
something passed through to get to the next fight.
For me the distinction you make is between "sci fi" and the good
stuff. Flash Gordon wouldn't be Space Opera--the scale is too
constrained for one thing--but it would be Sci Fi.

To me that's almost the Platonic ideal of space opera, but
whatever boats your float.

I suspect the problem is with trying to shove stories into
niches; there are always exceptions, and most good writing
doesn't fit into niches.

And just as a reminder, this thread started with Lynn
McGuire's reference to this...

http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html

...and, as is usual in Usenet, gotten a bit off-track. ;-)

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
E.g., Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which I have not read, but
Google is my friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_Board_of_Control

And it's rather interesting how relevant MacDonough's Song
from "As Easy As ABC" continues to be... ;-)

[Robert Woodward]

In article <***@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<Snip Re: Space Opera vs MilSF>

Post by J. Clarke
I agree which is why I do not use that definition. I look at it more
simply. The closer it is in scale to the Lensman series, the closer
it is to Space Opera. The farther away it is, the farther it is from
Space Opera. Space Opera and MilSF overlap but they are not the same.
I don't recall the author or title now but there is a short series
involving a Roman Cohort (equivalent in modern terms to a battalion I
believe) which was kidnapped by space aliens and put to work dealing
with various situations where the aliens weren't allowed to use
weapons more advanced than those used by the locals, with much detail
of the tactics and equipage. That was most assuredly MilSF, but it
was not at all Space Opera--space didn't even enter into it except as
something passed through to get to the next fight.

David Drake's "Ranks of Bronze" (published by Galaxy in the August 1975
issue), later expanded into a novel of the same name (published by Baen
Books in 1986). IIRC, those Romans were part of Marcus Licinius
Crassus's army that came to grief at Carrhae.

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 21:48:15 -0800, Robert Woodward

Post by Robert Woodward
<Snip Re: Space Opera vs MilSF>

Post by J. Clarke
I agree which is why I do not use that definition. I look at it more
simply. The closer it is in scale to the Lensman series, the closer
it is to Space Opera. The farther away it is, the farther it is from
Space Opera. Space Opera and MilSF overlap but they are not the same.
I don't recall the author or title now but there is a short series
involving a Roman Cohort (equivalent in modern terms to a battalion I
believe) which was kidnapped by space aliens and put to work dealing
with various situations where the aliens weren't allowed to use
weapons more advanced than those used by the locals, with much detail
of the tactics and equipage. That was most assuredly MilSF, but it
was not at all Space Opera--space didn't even enter into it except as
something passed through to get to the next fight.

David Drake's "Ranks of Bronze" (published by Galaxy in the August 1975
issue), later expanded into a novel of the same name (published by Baen
Books in 1986). IIRC, those Romans were part of Marcus Licinius
Crassus's army that came to grief at Carrhae.

That's it, thank you.

[Joy Beeson]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 21:48:15 -0800, Robert Woodward

Post by Robert Woodward
David Drake's "Ranks of Bronze" (published by Galaxy in the August 1975
issue), later expanded into a novel of the same name (published by Baen
Books in 1986). IIRC, those Romans were part of Marcus Licinius
Crassus's army that came to grief at Carrhae.

I would love to read the story of what happened when they got back to
Earth. Would it have occurred to them that they could make a mint by
setting up as a hospital?

[Wolffan]

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 21:48:15 -0800, Robert Woodward

Post by Robert Woodward
David Drake's "Ranks of Bronze" (published by Galaxy in the August 1975
issue), later expanded into a novel of the same name (published by Baen
Books in 1986). IIRC, those Romans were part of Marcus Licinius
Crassus's army that came to grief at Carrhae.

I would love to read the story of what happened when they got back to
Earth. Would it have occurred to them that they could make a mint by
setting up as a hospital?

They got back to Earth. See the end of the novel version, and the last story
in the _Foreign Legions_ collection. There was considerable time dilation due
to relativity involved, so it took them several thousand years, between
traipsing around as slaves to idiots, then finally revolting and killing the
idiots and going home. (The idiots managed to come up with something _worse_
than Trek’s Prime Directive! You couldn’t use advanced weapons to conquer
the primitives, you had to use something close to their level, but then have
at it! And then... they used a cohort of Romans from the height of Rome, gave
them considerable combat experience, thoroughly pissed them off, and utterly
underestimated them! ‘Idiots’ is too mild!) Lots of fun stuff occurs.
Including a few light renames of large ships, for reasons of snark.

[David Johnston]

Post by Bob Casanova
OK, I did a bit of research and it looks like you're
correct; the current generally-accepted definition would
include *any* adventure story, large-scale or otherwise, set
in space, regardless of how well written. I tend to
disagree; to me, the term is a bit pejorative, and denotes
stories which are straight adventure, (usually with flowery
or "purple" prose; I mentioned Bulwer-Lytton elsethread),
with little or no intricate plotting or characterization;
for visual equivalents, contrast the 1930s "Flash Gordon"
with either "Caprica" or the BSG remake. Using the current
definition and applying its equivalent to more mainstream
literature, just about anything which isn't a "thought
piece" or a "slice of life" story would seem to be "X
opera", anything from O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels to
"Macbeth" and many others,

Macbeth is not an adventure story.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 20:49:19 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by David Johnston

Post by David Johnston

Post by Bob Casanova
OK, I did a bit of research and it looks like you're
correct; the current generally-accepted definition would
include *any* adventure story, large-scale or otherwise, set
in space, regardless of how well written. I tend to
disagree; to me, the term is a bit pejorative, and denotes
stories which are straight adventure, (usually with flowery
or "purple" prose; I mentioned Bulwer-Lytton elsethread),
with little or no intricate plotting or characterization;
for visual equivalents, contrast the 1930s "Flash Gordon"
with either "Caprica" or the BSG remake. Using the current
definition and applying its equivalent to more mainstream
literature, just about anything which isn't a "thought
piece" or a "slice of life" story would seem to be "X
opera", anything from O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels to
"Macbeth" and many others,

Macbeth is not an adventure story.

Depends on what one defines as "adventure". But OK.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 20:49:19 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by David Johnston

Post by David Johnston

Post by Bob Casanova
OK, I did a bit of research and it looks like you're
correct; the current generally-accepted definition would
include *any* adventure story, large-scale or otherwise, set
in space, regardless of how well written. I tend to
disagree; to me, the term is a bit pejorative, and denotes
stories which are straight adventure, (usually with flowery
or "purple" prose; I mentioned Bulwer-Lytton elsethread),
with little or no intricate plotting or characterization;
for visual equivalents, contrast the 1930s "Flash Gordon"
with either "Caprica" or the BSG remake. Using the current
definition and applying its equivalent to more mainstream
literature, just about anything which isn't a "thought
piece" or a "slice of life" story would seem to be "X
opera", anything from O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels to
"Macbeth" and many others,

Macbeth is not an adventure story.

Depends on what one defines as "adventure". But OK.

Is it somebody else far far away having a really bad day? If yes,
then it's probably an adventure.

[Clive D.W. Feather]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
Depends on what one defines as "adventure". But OK.

Is it somebody else far far away having a really bad day? If yes,
then it's probably an adventure.

There are four kinds of story:

Man v nature
Man v man
Man v woman
Man v himself

To which someone on Usenet years ago added:

Man v Kzin

[J. Clarke]

On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 14:43:57 +0000, "Clive D.W. Feather"

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
Depends on what one defines as "adventure". But OK.

Is it somebody else far far away having a really bad day? If yes,
then it's probably an adventure.

Man v nature
Man v man
Man v woman
Man v himself
Man v Kzin

When I first was taught that I recognized it as very limiting bull,
but by that time I had learned also that teachers are uneducable.

Man v extraterrestrial
Man v technology
ET v different ET

[David Johnston]

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 14:43:57 +0000, "Clive D.W. Feather"

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
Depends on what one defines as "adventure". But OK.

Is it somebody else far far away having a really bad day? If yes,
then it's probably an adventure.

Man v nature
Man v man
Man v woman
Man v himself
Man v Kzin

When I first was taught that I recognized it as very limiting bull,
but by that time I had learned also that teachers are uneducable.
Man v extraterrestrial

Extraterrestrials are just another flavour of "man" (or nature if
they're not advanced tool users)

Post by J. Clarke
Man v technology
ET v different ET

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 14:43:57 +0000, "Clive D.W. Feather"

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
Depends on what one defines as "adventure". But OK.

Is it somebody else far far away having a really bad day? If yes,
then it's probably an adventure.

Man v nature
Man v man
Man v woman
Man v himself

Sounds very ... intellectual.

Which is to say, totally disconnected from any known reality.

Post by Clive D.W. Feather
Man v Kzin

[David Johnston]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bob Casanova
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 20:49:19 -0700, the following appeared
in alt.books.david-weber, posted by David Johnston

Post by David Johnston

Post by Bob Casanova
OK, I did a bit of research and it looks like you're
correct; the current generally-accepted definition would
include *any* adventure story, large-scale or otherwise, set
in space, regardless of how well written. I tend to
disagree; to me, the term is a bit pejorative, and denotes
stories which are straight adventure, (usually with flowery
or "purple" prose; I mentioned Bulwer-Lytton elsethread),
with little or no intricate plotting or characterization;
for visual equivalents, contrast the 1930s "Flash Gordon"
with either "Caprica" or the BSG remake. Using the current
definition and applying its equivalent to more mainstream
literature, just about anything which isn't a "thought
piece" or a "slice of life" story would seem to be "X
opera", anything from O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels to
"Macbeth" and many others,

Macbeth is not an adventure story.

Depends on what one defines as "adventure". But OK.

Is it somebody else far far away having a really bad day? If yes,
then it's probably an adventure.

No, it's someone having a bad day and overcoming danger. Winston Smith
was having a really bad day. 1984 is not an adventure story.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_
by David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Both. And I forgot to mention the military science fiction as this is
the interlude between two world wars.

PICA's for all !

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_
by David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Safehold is a lifeboat, initially with 8 million human survivors out of
Earth and the 14 extra-solar colonies. If that is not space opera then
what is ?

And do not forget Owl in the cavern and all of the PICAs flying around
the place.

Lynn

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 18:36:47 -0600, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_
by David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Safehold is a lifeboat, initially with 8 million human survivors out of
Earth and the 14 extra-solar colonies. If that is not space opera then
what is ?
And do not forget Owl in the cavern and all of the PICAs flying around
the place.

When it gets off planet and starts throwing starships around, then it
might become space opera. As it stands it's far too constrained in
scale.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 18:36:47 -0600, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by David Johnston

Post by Lynn McGuire
_Through Fiery Trials: A Novel in the Safehold Series (Safehold, 10)_
by David Weber
https://www.amazon.com/Through-Fiery-Trials-Novel-Safehold/dp/0765364646/
Book number ten in a ten book space opera science fiction series.

I don't think it counts as space opera when you stick to one planet and
use 19th century weapons.  It is military science fiction though.

Safehold is a lifeboat, initially with 8 million human survivors out of
Earth and the 14 extra-solar colonies. If that is not space opera then
what is ?
And do not forget Owl in the cavern and all of the PICAs flying around
the place.

When it gets off planet and starts throwing starships around, then it
might become space opera. As it stands it's far too constrained in
scale.

Not gonna happen. Weber has said that he going to end Safehold when
they go back to space.

Lynn