Warp points

[Michelle Steiner]

Is there a list of what each of the warp point numbers mean? I realize
that type 8 and higher are closed warp points, and that "closed" means
that they are not detectable unless you know where they are.

[Jason Crowell]

Post by Michelle Steiner
Is there a list of what each of the warp point numbers mean? I realize
that type 8 and higher are closed warp points, and that "closed" means
that they are not detectable unless you know where they are.

Hello. I suppose you're reading from the fiction, as opposed to the
game books? There's a description on p14 of the Imperial Starfire (or
3rd edition) book.
1-8 are all open, 9-15 are all closed

Hmm...how do I do a four column chart in ASCII?
Die Roll Type Distance in LM Notes
1-7 1 180-360 500 Hull Space capacity
8-14 2 180-360 450 HS
15-20 3 180-360 400 HS
21-27 4 180-360 100 HS
28-34 5 240-360 500 HS
35-40 6 240-360 400 HS
41-47 7 1-90 500 HS
48-54 8 90-240 400 HS
55-60 9 90-300 300 HS
61-67 10 120-360 200 HS
68-74 11 300-360 180 HS
75-80 12 180-360 100 HS
81-87 13 180-360 300 HS
88-94 14 240-360 400 HS
95-00 15 1-360 500 HS

If you're reading the fiction, then the hull space capacity will make no
sense. 100 HS is a battleship, 180 HS is a mid-size monitor (they range
from 131-200 HS). That's 3rd edition, at least, the one that the books
were written with. Fourth edition, or Galactic Starfire adds a few new
wrinkles, and some entirely different mechanics.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jason Crowell
Hello. I suppose you're reading from the fiction, as opposed to the
game books?

Yes. I just finished _In Death Ground_ and started _The Shiva Option_;
of course, I read the first two before them.

Post by Jason Crowell
There's a description on p14 of the Imperial Starfire (or
3rd edition) book.
1-8 are all open, 9-15 are all closed

According to the novels, 1-7 are open, and 8 is closed.

When it says distance in LM, does that mean the distance from the
central star of the star system? In the fiction, does only the distance
determine the type of warp point? And what about the warp points that
are in open space, not near any star system?

Also, types 1 through 4 are the same distances, so what are their
differences in the fiction? Ditto for any others that have the same
distance groupings.

[Jason Crowell]

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jason Crowell
Hello. I suppose you're reading from the fiction, as opposed to the
game books?

Yes. I just finished _In Death Ground_ and started _The Shiva Option_;
of course, I read the first two before them.

Post by Jason Crowell
There's a description on p14 of the Imperial Starfire (or
3rd edition) book.
1-8 are all open, 9-15 are all closed

According to the novels, 1-7 are open, and 8 is closed.
When it says distance in LM, does that mean the distance from the
central star of the star system?

Yes.

Post by Michelle Steiner
In the fiction, does only the distance
determine the type of warp point?

Distance, capacity and whether its open or closed. But except for the
type four and eleven warp points, any ship seen up through Insurrection
will fit.

Post by Michelle Steiner
And what about the warp points that
are in open space, not near any star system?

The open space WP are generated like star systems, with the WP at a
distance from some central point.

Post by Michelle Steiner
Also, types 1 through 4 are the same distances, so what are their
differences in the fiction?

The size of ship that can make transit, I don't know why David set it so
that the smallest warp point can only take a battleship, but most of the
others can take ships 50-150% larger than the monitors used in ISW-4.

Post by Michelle Steiner
Ditto for any others that have the same
distance groupings.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jason Crowell

Post by Michelle Steiner
Also, types 1 through 4 are the same distances, so what are their
differences in the fiction?

The size of ship that can make transit, I don't know why David set it so
that the smallest warp point can only take a battleship, but most of the
others can take ships 50-150% larger than the monitors used in ISW-4.

Does he address this anywhere in any of the novels? If not,
where--other than in the games--is it addressed? Also, if I recall
correctly, in one of the novels he mentions that type 7 warp points are
the hardest of the open warp points to find, but it's not explained why
that is.

Also, is there any explanation as to why there are closed warp
points--i.e., why some warp points can't be detected?

[Jeffery S. Jones]

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:26:51 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jason Crowell

Post by Michelle Steiner
Also, types 1 through 4 are the same distances, so what are their
differences in the fiction?

The size of ship that can make transit, I don't know why David set it so
that the smallest warp point can only take a battleship, but most of the
others can take ships 50-150% larger than the monitors used in ISW-4.

Does he address this anywhere in any of the novels? If not,
where--other than in the games--is it addressed? Also, if I recall
correctly, in one of the novels he mentions that type 7 warp points are
the hardest of the open warp points to find, but it's not explained why
that is.

OK, in the novels, the warp point transit limit never comes up. I'm
guessing that he didn't apply it to the Insurrection or ISW4 map,
because a purely random generation would create some chains where it
*would* be an issue and thus would be mentioned.

As for locating, the game mechanics in Imperial Starfire don't
directly cover that. It is implied, and people have done optional
rules to reflect the idea, but the stock exploration rule is intended
to minimize micromanagement and handling for exploration -- "Emperor,
it will take 54 days to complete this survey with this task force".

Implied in the novel, and used in some optional rules, higher number
warp points are less likely to be spotted by a survey group. This
means that you either spend more time (to increase the odds by taking
more care with the survey) or you risk missing those points.

Now, in the novels it is clear that some warp points were found with
a resurvey. In the game, this would add a realistic element of
uncertainty, never knowing for sure if you've found all the warp
points you could, but at a cost in complexity.

In a story, it is no problem working with infinitely complex rules
(like real world things).

In ISF, all type 1 through 7 points are found on the first pass of
the survey. It is possible that a survey commander might omit the
inner sphere survey (where only type 7 can be found) in order to cut
about 30% off the time), but few human player emperors care to save
time like that. Type 8 through 11 are harder to spot, and can only be
found on a second pass after all of the easy ones have been
identified.

The closed type 12 through 15 (and possibly more, as the post-DW
expanded rules add types even harder to find) can't be located through
any normal survey process.

Type 7 has another characteristic, mentioned in TSO: They are found
close to the primary.

Post by Michelle Steiner
Also, is there any explanation as to why there are closed warp
points--i.e., why some warp points can't be detected?

Nope. Well, there is one thing -- closed warp points have no
detectable gravitational influence/eddy around them. Open warp points
do, and anything which gets close enough to one will be pulled toward
the warp point slowly. This is why closed warp points are defensively
tougher, because you can place fixed defense units right on the warp
point, rather than allowing a tiny bit of breathing room for the
intruders.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jeffery S. Jones

Post by Michelle Steiner
Also, is there any explanation as to why there are closed warp
points--i.e., why some warp points can't be detected?

Nope. Well, there is one thing -- closed warp points have no
detectable gravitational influence/eddy around them. Open warp
points do, and anything which gets close enough to one will be pulled
toward the warp point slowly. This is why closed warp points are
defensively tougher, because you can place fixed defense units right
on the warp point, rather than allowing a tiny bit of breathing room
for the intruders.

Thanks. And for the rest of the info as well.

--Michelle

[Kevin Logan]

Are the warp point maps in The Shiva Option available anywhere else? The
ones in the paperback are largely illegible.

[Hans]

Check out ther hard bound copy from your public library. They are much easier
to read.

I remapped the WPs using MS-word... but didn't finish detailing it with the
system names before I had to return the book to the library. ( Should have used
an arts program that allows free form labeling. )


Hans

Post by Kevin Logan
Are the warp point maps in The Shiva Option available anywhere else? The
ones in the paperback are largely illegible.

[Andrew L.]

Assuming FF label means not snapping to grid, Word allows that. You can
turn off the grid-snap from the "Grid" option of the "Drawing" toolbar.

Andrew L.

Post by Hans
Check out ther hard bound copy from your public library. They are much easier
to read.
I remapped the WPs using MS-word... but didn't finish detailing it with the
system names before I had to return the book to the library. ( Should have used
an arts program that allows free form labeling. )
Hans

Post by Kevin Logan
Are the warp point maps in The Shiva Option available anywhere else? The
ones in the paperback are largely illegible.

[Hans]

That's not the problem. The problem is that I can't use MS-Word to place a
label anywhere on the page I want without having to insert space characters.
The space characters push the graphics around. :(


Hans

Post by Andrew L.
Assuming FF label means not snapping to grid, Word allows that. You can
turn off the grid-snap from the "Grid" option of the "Drawing" toolbar.
Andrew L.

Post by Hans
Check out ther hard bound copy from your public library. They are much

easier

Post by Hans
to read.
I remapped the WPs using MS-word... but didn't finish detailing it with

the

Post by Hans
system names before I had to return the book to the library. ( Should

have used

Post by Hans
an arts program that allows free form labeling. )
Hans

Post by Kevin Logan
Are the warp point maps in The Shiva Option available anywhere else? The
ones in the paperback are largely illegible.

[Andrew L.]

Post by Hans
That's not the problem. The problem is that I can't use MS-Word to place a
label anywhere on the page I want without having to insert space characters.
The space characters push the graphics around. :(

Hrm...did you use Text Boxes (from the Insert menu) for labels? You can,
through the "Format Autoshapes" option from the context menu, cause those to
float over or behind text. If you set those to "In Front of Text" (Layout
tab), and the text/graphics to "In Line with Text" (the default) or "Behind
Text", a textbox won't interfere with the placement of the graphics.

The same holds true for graphics and text, BTW, except I don't think you can
actually set text to "Behind Text". So, you can't have labels floating over
graphics floating over text. :)

You can email me, if you want, with a more detailed description of what you
were trying to do; a lot of my job is documenting, and we use Word. :)

Andrew L.

[John Campbell]

Post by Hans

Post by Kevin Logan
Are the warp point maps in The Shiva Option available anywhere else?
The ones in the paperback are largely illegible.

Check out ther hard bound copy from your public library. They are much
easier to read.
I remapped the WPs using MS-word... but didn't finish detailing it with
the system names before I had to return the book to the library. (
Should have used an arts program that allows free form labeling. )

There's no need to waste time and effort reinventing a square
wheel. Baen's got a perfectly good set of the maps already in standard
non-Microsoft-proprietary digital image formats up on their site for
anyone to download.

http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200202/0671318489__37.htm

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by John Campbell
There's no need to waste time and effort reinventing a square
wheel. Baen's got a perfectly good set of the maps already in standard
non-Microsoft-proprietary digital image formats up on their site for
anyone to download.

Thanks. I tried to find them yesterday, and couldn't.

[Dahak]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Phoenix-D]

Post by Dahak
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:47:37 +0100, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Kevin Logan
Are the warp point maps in The Shiva Option available anywhere else? The
ones in the paperback are largely illegible.

Here are some modified versions that I've done up, based on the
ones from the series. This is the Arachnid Realm, I don't have one
for the Star Union. The map from the book has a couple of errors.

http://thefifthimperium.com/BookSamples/Archive/TheShivaOptionChapters/CheesyMap.htm

Post by Dahak
I've been told that I have some minor glitches based on some
_Insurrection_-era systems (near Refrak, IIRC), but the rest should
apply for _IDG_ and _TSO_.
-JPB

Looking at either of those..I'd have to see a 'full' map to be sure, but the
way everything connects so closely seems a bit strange. I mean, the Bugs
certainly concentrate their industry, but to have a fringe sector suddenly
within a few warps of Alpha Centauri AND a big sector of the Khanate..that's
some weird geography.

Phoenix-D

[Jeffery S. Jones]

Post by Dahak

Post by Dahak
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:47:37 +0100, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Kevin Logan
Are the warp point maps in The Shiva Option available anywhere else? The
ones in the paperback are largely illegible.

Here are some modified versions that I've done up, based on the
ones from the series. This is the Arachnid Realm, I don't have one
for the Star Union. The map from the book has a couple of errors.

http://thefifthimperium.com/BookSamples/Archive/TheShivaOptionChapters/CheesyMap.htm

Post by Dahak
I've been told that I have some minor glitches based on some
_Insurrection_-era systems (near Refrak, IIRC), but the rest should
apply for _IDG_ and _TSO_.
-JPB

Looking at either of those..I'd have to see a 'full' map to be sure, but the
way everything connects so closely seems a bit strange. I mean, the Bugs
certainly concentrate their industry, but to have a fringe sector suddenly
within a few warps of Alpha Centauri AND a big sector of the Khanate..that's
some weird geography.

Warp points don't have geography in the ordinary sense. They don't
link in patterns based primarily on physical distance, nor are they
tightly linked based on warp line chain distances. In fact, they
often appear entirely random, with no good explanation to why they
connect two particular systems.

Closed warp points tend to push out more randomly than open warp
points. Kind of like jumping across the folds of the paper, they
often link systems which otherwise -- going only through open warp
points -- would be very far apart.

Note that a bunch of the key warp points linking to Bug space are
closed, including Zephrain and Alpha Centauri, as well as of course
Klieaan's link. They're like the super-express secret passageways of
the galaxy, which shortens the distance a *lot*. (Well, Zephrain only
shortens it if you go through Bug space, which happened of course).

[Jason Crowell]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Hans]

In the books it has to do with the gravity waves generated about the Warp
Points. It has nothing to do with the size of a ship's hull that can use the
warp point... warp lane. And as has been said 8+ are closed points ( ones that
are not detectable (with the current tech available) in the books.

Post by Michelle Steiner
Is there a list of what each of the warp point numbers mean? I realize
that type 8 and higher are closed warp points, and that "closed" means
that they are not detectable unless you know where they are.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Hans
In the books it has to do with the gravity waves generated about the Warp
Points.

*nod* I came across that in _The Shiva Option_ today.

Post by Hans
It has nothing to do with the size of a ship's hull that can use the
warp point... warp lane.

That's what I had thought; apparently, it's something introduced for the
game. That's why, once someone introduced the game into the discussion,
I kept trying limit my questions to the books.

Post by Hans
And as has been said 8+ are closed points ( ones that are not
detectable (with the current tech available) in the books.

And apparently do not not generate gravity waves. Of course, that
raises the question of what differentiates the various classes of closed
warp points.

[Jeffery S. Jones]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:09:43 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Hans
In the books it has to do with the gravity waves generated about the Warp
Points.

*nod* I came across that in _The Shiva Option_ today.

Post by Hans
It has nothing to do with the size of a ship's hull that can use the
warp point... warp lane.

That's what I had thought; apparently, it's something introduced for the
game. That's why, once someone introduced the game into the discussion,
I kept trying limit my questions to the books.

DW did put it into the game, but AFAIK has either ignored it for the
books or is using different rules for the books than the printed game.
The game supplements based on the books use the warp lane size limit
*but* none are small enough to effect what units may pass through, so
it is as if it wasn't there.

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Hans
And as has been said 8+ are closed points ( ones that are not
detectable (with the current tech available) in the books.

And apparently do not not generate gravity waves. Of course, that
raises the question of what differentiates the various classes of closed
warp points.

Coming out of it, there must be some measurable effects other than
just the location. These differences determine what the warp point
type is for closed warp points (and for open, I imagine, since this is
your first look at it on first transit, rather than observing it from
the outside).

Also, within the rules, there is one thing which does use warp point
type which is also in the books: recon drones. The higher the warp
point type, the less likely the drone will survive intact.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jeffery S. Jones

Post by Michelle Steiner
That's what I had thought; apparently, it's something introduced for
the game. That's why, once someone introduced the game into the
discussion, I kept trying limit my questions to the books.

DW did put it into the game, but AFAIK has either ignored it for the
books or is using different rules for the books than the printed game.

And since I read the books, and am not a gamer, the differences between
the books and the game are irrelevant to me.

[Jeffery S. Jones]

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:13:39 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jeffery S. Jones

Post by Michelle Steiner
That's what I had thought; apparently, it's something introduced for
the game. That's why, once someone introduced the game into the
discussion, I kept trying limit my questions to the books.

DW did put it into the game, but AFAIK has either ignored it for the
books or is using different rules for the books than the printed game.

And since I read the books, and am not a gamer, the differences between
the books and the game are irrelevant to me.

It makes me wonder if the effect might show up in future books, or
if he intends to ignore it entirely. It would be simpler to ignore
it. The current game edition changed the rules, so that the warp lane
size limit doesn't outright block transit, but it does slow it down,
limiting the force which can arrive for the "beachhead" in a warp
point assault. This is enough to make the size a battle factor
without making any systems or routes off-limits to travel.

Anyway, as far as the books go the issue doesn't come up, so you can
ignore it just fine. Unless of course, it does get put in a new
Starfire book, if and when one is written.

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Jeffery S. Jones
Anyway, as far as the books go the issue doesn't come up, so you can
ignore it just fine. Unless of course, it does get put in a new
Starfire book, if and when one is written.

According to a clerk at a local B&N, there is a book by Weber and White
due out in May, 2004.

--Michelle

[Jeffery S. Jones]

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:28:13 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jeffery S. Jones
Anyway, as far as the books go the issue doesn't come up, so you can
ignore it just fine. Unless of course, it does get put in a new
Starfire book, if and when one is written.

According to a clerk at a local B&N, there is a book by Weber and White
due out in May, 2004.

That is quite cool. I didn't know they were doing one so soon, and
have heard no details at all.

[Dahak]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:07:35 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Jeffery S. Jones
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 10:28:13 -0700, Michelle Steiner

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jeffery S. Jones
Anyway, as far as the books go the issue doesn't come up, so you can
ignore it just fine. Unless of course, it does get put in a new
Starfire book, if and when one is written.

According to a clerk at a local B&N, there is a book by Weber and White
due out in May, 2004.

That is quite cool. I didn't know they were doing one so soon, and
have heard no details at all.

Jeffrey,

I think the important question to ask is:

Is there a book by Weber & White due in May '04, or a book by
Weber and White (ie a book by Weber and a book by White) due in May
'04?

_Windrider's Oath_ by David Weber is due out in May '04. I
suspect another book by White may be out then, as well. But I admit
that's just a guess.

BTW, thanks for the _Starfire_ info.

-JPB

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Dahak
Is there a book by Weber & White due in May '04, or a book by
Weber and White (ie a book by Weber and a book by White) due in May
'04?

According to the clerk, it's a book co-authored by both of them.

[Dahak]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:47:38 -0700, an orbiting mind-control laser

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Dahak
Is there a book by Weber & White due in May '04, or a book by
Weber and White (ie a book by Weber and a book by White) due in May
'04?

According to the clerk, it's a book co-authored by both of them.

That's interesting.

I hadn't heard of anything prior to this. Any idea if it's new or
a reissue?


-JPB

[Michelle Steiner]

Post by Dahak

Post by Michelle Steiner
According to the clerk, it's a book co-authored by both of them.

That's interesting.
I hadn't heard of anything prior to this. Any idea if it's new or
a reissue?

No. I chekced the Baen web site, and it went only through February or
March.

--Michelle

[Matthew P. Picio]

Post by Jeffery S. Jones

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jeffery S. Jones
DW did put it into the game, but AFAIK has either ignored it for the
books or is using different rules for the books than the printed game.

And since I read the books, and am not a gamer, the differences between
the books and the game are irrelevant to me.

It makes me wonder if the effect might show up in future books, or
if he intends to ignore it entirely. It would be simpler to ignore
it. The current game edition changed the rules, so that the warp lane
size limit doesn't outright block transit, but it does slow it down,
limiting the force which can arrive for the "beachhead" in a warp
point assault. This is enough to make the size a battle factor
without making any systems or routes off-limits to travel.
Anyway, as far as the books go the issue doesn't come up, so you can
ignore it just fine. Unless of course, it does get put in a new
Starfire book, if and when one is written.

DW wrote 3rd edition Starfire, and has stated on this newsgroup that the
Starfire literary universe will continue following the path he started in
the game, and that the newer editions of the game would probably diverge
further and further over time. (posted on Feb 9, 2000, reference at
http://dahak.ne.client2.attbi.com:8080/FAQs/InfoDump/sf_starfire.htm )

As a reader of the books and an owner of the game, I have to say that IMO,
the books have pretty faithfully followed the game mechanics in 3rd edition.
That's not surprising considering what DW said in his previous posts about
taking over development of the 3rd edition in order to provide a unified
concept and path for the game.

-MPP

[Jeffery S. Jones]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:17:01 -0700, "Matthew P. Picio"

Post by Matthew P. Picio

Post by Jeffery S. Jones

Post by Michelle Steiner

Post by Jeffery S. Jones
DW did put it into the game, but AFAIK has either ignored it for the
books or is using different rules for the books than the printed game.

And since I read the books, and am not a gamer, the differences between
the books and the game are irrelevant to me.

It makes me wonder if the effect might show up in future books, or
if he intends to ignore it entirely. It would be simpler to ignore
it. The current game edition changed the rules, so that the warp lane
size limit doesn't outright block transit, but it does slow it down,
limiting the force which can arrive for the "beachhead" in a warp
point assault. This is enough to make the size a battle factor
without making any systems or routes off-limits to travel.
Anyway, as far as the books go the issue doesn't come up, so you can
ignore it just fine. Unless of course, it does get put in a new
Starfire book, if and when one is written.

DW wrote 3rd edition Starfire, and has stated on this newsgroup that the
Starfire literary universe will continue following the path he started in
the game, and that the newer editions of the game would probably diverge
further and further over time. (posted on Feb 9, 2000, reference at
http://dahak.ne.client2.attbi.com:8080/FAQs/InfoDump/sf_starfire.htm )
As a reader of the books and an owner of the game, I have to say that IMO,
the books have pretty faithfully followed the game mechanics in 3rd edition.
That's not surprising considering what DW said in his previous posts about
taking over development of the 3rd edition in order to provide a unified
concept and path for the game.

3rd edition isn't dead, either. Some players prefer it for various
reasons, one of which is that it *does* play like the books. The new
edition has a much wider range of possibilities than the novel's
history, and has much more player-generated input.

But that is a difference between novels and games. A novel should
be the vision of the author, whereas a game is a shared work, a
product of feedback between the designers and the players. If a given
rule isn't fun for a playing group, they can just alter the rules.

In a novel, altering the laws of nature -- the rules -- is a rather
big plot problem ;-)

On the plus side, everything in the game which is based on DW's
works was either written by him or conforms to his vision. All of the
expansions based on the novels, and the Stars At War book which covers
the interstellar wars before Crusade (mentioned at length in The Shiva
Option), are faithful to the books (and vice versa, if you consider
that DW wrote most of the game material).

When you get into the arena of the generalized, player-created races
and campaigns, that historical background fades. Sometimes, the
results will be similar, but you can't rely on it matching up.